Rhythm & Meter CRASH COURSE with Ben Laude (Apr 15)

Very interesting crash course. But the link isn't working in my case and I'm not able to find the crash course on the platform. What am I doing wrong? Thanks! :)

I would love to attend, alas, I will be back on campus teaching! Do you have any tricks for polyrhythms? I so struggle with them! Slow practice gets me there, but it's a struggle. It takes so much thought -- sometimes more than I think is necessary. I am working on Beethoven's 25th Sonata Opus 79, and the 3rd movement has some rhythmic shifts. I am doing ok with them. Slow practice seems calculated, but when I bring them to speed, even if they fit... I don't think they are "good enough"... Thanks for any advice.

Hey Denise I will definitely cover polyrhythms. I was going to draw from a different Beethoven sonata (development/recap of op 14/2), but can discuss your Op79 passage as well. Can you send a measure number?

Same for anyone else interested in this workshop! Please send me your rhythm problem passages! I will be presenting my own selections, but would love to prepare to address yours as well!

Hi Ben, I'd like to raise the question: how do I practise the ability to create a free flowing melody line independent from an underlying firm rhythm? An example coming to my mind is e.g. in Chopins Ballade 1, where he writes a lot of off-beat ornaments in the right hand over the rhythm in the left hand, in order to create an independent voice.

Would this find a place in the scope of your session?

Olaf Kessel-Deynet yes, great question. This relates to one of the main points about rhythmic performance I'll be discussing, and that has to do with the physical requirement to develop independence between hands. I will look at the Ballade for examples, and have some others prepared as well.

Ben, thanks for offering that! I just had a wrestling match with the 3rd movement! Measure 80-89. The section that is the "rough draft" to the opening of the first movement of the 109. I am fine with the polyrhythms earlier in the movement, but when the triplet has a rest on beat one against the 16th my mind says, "and halt." I have found when I memorize it, I play it better because I can focus more on the feel. But, I have so much trouble memorizing - even with blocking chords, knowing the progression, etc.. I am one of those type of people who cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. HA! This is the first FULL Sonata I have ever played. Jason (my other half) offers advice on the polyrhythms (- and it's hard to take advice from him because I feel humbly intimidated - yet, it is he who pushed me to go back to university to get my music degree and coached me through auditions. Go figure!) So does my teacher from long ago who I have been meeting every few weeks with since August (thank you zoom lessons). But they both have different approaches. 

What is really driving me to get a handle on it - my most advanced student is starting to have polyrhythms in his rep - and I have NO CLUE how to teach it. :-/  

I have faith. Hopefully I can chime in for a bit on Thursday. My prep is during the first bit. If not, I will most definitely watch the stream. Please don't change your programing for my simple hang up, and if you do add it into your talk, I am very appreciative.

Thank you for your time and all you do! Tonebase has really invigorated my drive to push myself further. 

~Denise in San Diego

Sindre , Denise - these are great! I'm adding them to the lineup for tomorrow.

Ben

I had less of a wrestling match last night with Op. 79... Now I have to work on relaxing my left hand! I was never a fast player. (My students are speed demons compared to me. HA!) However, I am finding the faster I play the polyrhythms in the noted measures, the more they "congeal"... Sigh. STEP by STEP! I sometimes think of the scene in the 1971 Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when Gene Wilder takes two steps forward... one step back... 

@Ben

Quoting the tonebase.co head of piano: “Professional musicians have internalized metrical structures and rhythmic patterns to an extent that they can simply feel them in performance. A big part of training rhythm is embedding it in our unconscious reflexes.”

What one should do in order to internalize the metrical structures?

Kodaly, Orff, and other prominent pedagogues focus on conveying the idea of a rhythm primarily to children. In my view, this is the point where a young pianist develops the sense of rhythm on an intuitive level, thus, ‘internalizing’ the metrical structures he/she is taught. 

What approach is suitable for an adult beginner in your opinion?

What rhythm counting methods are you aware of and do you have a preferred one (1234, takadimi, etc.)?

How did musicians tackle the rhythmic training before the metronome came about?

When is it appropriate to count the rhythm in one’s mind (practice, performance, piece dependent)?

Tips and tricks on how to tackle the polyrhythms would be much appreciated. Many thanks 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD17n3x6UTk Here you go. A brilliant analysis of Meshuggah's rhythm

A great workshop, Ben. I took away a lot from it. Looking forward to learning more about Reich's Piano Phase, and also about Meshuggah! Do not know either of these, but that will change soon. I know very little about heavy metal, but the fact that a metal reference was brought into the exchange was very cool and says a lot about the openness and diversity (and absence of elitism) here: that's really great! As for my own playing, the biggest take away for difficult 2-against-3 (or, worse for me, 5-against-anything!) is maybe not to care quite so much. Roughly paraphrasing Ben, it doesn't really matter that much if that 8th note is slipped in precisely where it 'should' be, mathematically. No one is going to notice. Believe me, I'm no mathematician, but ironically, my approach to this kind of problem is mathematical. TOO mathematical! That will be a hard habit to break, but Ben's approach to rhythm and meter was liberating, and I'm going to try to bring that to my practicing starting today. Thanks a lot!

Hi Ben, 

I purchased a book on Polyrhythms for Pianists by Stacy Fahrion today: https://pianopronto.com/composers-community/stacy-fahrion/stacy-fahrion-polyrhythms-for-pianists/

I heard about it on Vibrant Music Teaching, it’s a website/music studio business/teaching tips website and apple podcast, by an Irish girl Nicola Canton, and I watched some videos on youtube.
 

I haven’t delved into this lesson yet. I really need to work on polyrhythms for Fantaisie Impromptu and just in general. I plan to look at this crash course tomorrow or Friday, but have you anymore videos specifically targeting various polyrhythms and with the context of pieces? Do you have any suggestions for working with this book if you’ve used it? 

hello Ben,

thank you very much for this workshop. very helpful and insightful. the 3v4 you discussed - would that apply to the doppio movimento part of the Chopin nocturne op 48 no 1? I had a lesson on that part with my piano teacher and I was crushed as I cannot get a steady rhythm on either hand in the are 3 v 4 parts.  thank you very much for whatever advise you can give on this.