Music, Motor Control and the Brain

I would like to discuss how the brain and nervous system learn and play music based on the papers in this book entitled “Music, Motor Control, and the Brain.”

https://a.co/d/06xb0qHk

 

I purchased the Kindle version, which is still rather expensive, so, I will read and try to summarize the findings of one of the papers.

I have posted the table of contents. You can select one of the two images that show the table of contents by clicking on them separately. 
 

Perhaps people could vote on which paper appeals to them the most. There are papers specifically related to pianists.

Note: I am not a brain researcher, although I once dated one. She messed with my brain, lol.
 

I am just curious how the brain learns and plays music.

 

FYI, for people who might be interested,

       

16 replies

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    • Pediatrician
    • a_weymann
    • 10 days ago
    • Reported - view

     I became very curious and asked Prof. Chatty for his opinion, and he had A LOT to say (you’ll notice that he always knows exactly what I currently practice, in this case Ravel’s “Noctuelles”, and often likes to reference that in his answers): 

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

      • Larry_K
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Ha, well done, thanks for posting that summary.

      I asked Claude AI about this book in relation to the discussion I had with it about the brain and motor control, and it replied “Edited chapters by researchers on exactly this topic: how the brain controls and learns instrumental movement, including pianists, plus plasticity and motor disorders in musicians. It's the closest match to our discussion, though it predates some newer imaging work.”

      I am interested in reading some of the papers because of their foundational nature. 
       

      I suppose I will start with the paper from Caroline Palmer. I would appreciate your help in understanding some of the neurology and anatomy behind the paper.

      I am not a doctor.

      • Larry_K
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I started the Caroline Palmer paper and am already hooked.

       

      ”Theories of memory often cite music performance as an example of expert memory, and many studies have examined the factors that influence performers' memory (for review see Palmer (1997) and Gabrielsson (1999)). Music performance can be depicted as a cognitive skill with large memory demands, or as a motor skill with large physical execution demands. Cognitive dimensions of performers' formers' memory for music are often described in terms of musical structure, such as harmony, tonality, phrasing, and meter (Palmer 1997; Gabrielsson 1999; Palmer and Pfordresher 2003). Motor aspects of performance are measured in physical dimensions such as fluency, speed, rhythmic precision, and hand coordination (Krampe and Ericsson 1996; Drake and Palmer 2000). Musicians' memory that allows them to perform a specific musical piece, referred to as `memory for performance', is distinguished here from other memories of performance (by oneself or someone else).
       

      Music performance is of much interest to psychologists precisely because it is demanding both cognitively and in terms of motor skills. Memory for music entails sequences on the order of thousands of pitch events that are produced at rates as high as 8-12 events per second, with less than 3% error (Palmer and van de Sande 1993; Repp 1996; Finney and Palmer 2003). In addition to categorical pitch events, listeners (infants as well as adults) remember fine expressive nuances of performances, including timing, intensity, and articulation information that distinguish different performances of the same music (Palmer et al. 2001). A more accurate conceptualization of the problem of describing memory for performance may be: what are the underlying features of music performance that are represented in memory? Which features are described in motor coordinates? How do factors such as maturation, musical acculturation, and training influence the representation of those features?”

      — Music, Motor Control and the Brain by Eckart Altenmüller

    • Ana.7
    • 10 days ago
    • Reported - view

    I find this book good, practical and focused on music learning. The writer is a musician although not a pianist. Still the focus on evidence based practice is well done and helps understand why we are changing significantly the way we practice our instruments. It is easy to read with plenty of applicable  actions to our area. Have a look, let me know what you think.  Molly Gebrian learn faster perform better a musicians guide to the neuroscience of practicing, Oxford a university Press 2024. 

      • Pediatrician
      • a_weymann
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Molly Gebrian’s book is great. Most of us have read it; my piano teacher actually invited her to give an online seminar to the students in his studio and she is delightful and super interesting in person. 

      • Larry_K
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

        Perhaps one of you should start a thread on the Gebrian book. 

      I asked Claude for something deeper than that book, and that’s when it came up with the book I posted.

      I was looking for something more brain oriented than practice oriented.

    • Larry_K
    • 10 days ago
    • Reported - view

     This section addresses what I was trying to elucidate in another thread,

    ”A recent review of musical performance makes a point that experienced pianists know viscerally: highly practiced sequences can run through learned feed-forward mechanisms faster than conscious control could possibly specify the individual movements. Conscious attention can actually interfere with these established motor routines, while higher-level cognition remains essential for musical intention, adaptation,
    anticipation and error recovery. • PubMed Central (PMC) That immediately raises practical questions of the sort that arise when learning something like Ravel's
    Noctuelles:“

    And, yes, I see that reference to Ravel, lol.

    Claude AI used to do that sort of thing to me too. At one point, we thought of moving to Dublin. Claude related everything to the move. It seems to have finally dropped that. We are not moving. 

      • Pediatrician
      • a_weymann
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       the moving analogy is hilarious. With me, it’s really my fault because I ask Prof. Chatty a lot of piano-related questions, so I’m not surprised that he intimately knows and frequently references my repertoire. Yes, I found the section from his response that you quoted particularly interesting and useful as well - but at the same time pointing to the pianist’s eternal dilemma of how much conscious control in every split second of a performance is necessary, and where it rather gets in the way and makes one stumble. 
      in related news, I found the excerpt from Palmer’s essay that you posted intriguing enough that I did end up ordering the book (hardcover!). My life consists of medicine, eating, sleeping, singing, and playing the piano; therefore, since I have no luxurious hobbies, I felt the extravagant expense to be justified. 

      • Larry_K
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       In a thread on the use of 20dB cut plugs when practicing the soprano recorder, for I also play three different recorders, Claude AI came out with,

      “For apartment living during your Dublin transition planning, 20dB plugs during practice sessions seems like a reasonable, moderate approach rather than a major compromise.”

      The thread never mentioned Dublin, haha. I was just trying to protect my hearing.

      Claude AI sometimes circles back to my struggles with Chopin’s Op 17 No 4, and seems to have a much higher opinion of my piano playing skills than I, or my teacher, have.

      Alas, we have always had to read text carefully, and recognize statements that don’t quite fit. It is no different with AI. So far, the benefits from my conversations far outweigh the negatives. 

      I am happy that you will be along for the ride with reading these papers! I will use the reading order proposed by your Professor Chatty, lol.

      Far be it from me to criticize anyone for buying a book, no matter the price.

      I buy the Kindle versions because it’s a bit easier to post excerpts, and twenty years of living in small apartments caused me to shed a lot of physical books. 

      A small German company built some software to take highlighted passages and add them to an AI model, allowing for the visualization and searching of a word net. So, the approximately 25,000 highlights from twenty years of my Kindle reading became accessible to me.

      I still search for ways to more easily highlight and share text from physical books, and so, I have ordered a small wand that will scan text. I haven’t received it yet.

      As for conscious control while playing the piano, it is a fascinating topic of discussion. Too much conscious control is a potential threat to fluid playing. 

      Even with low levels of conscious control during playing, there is still monitoring going on in the brain. I believe this is why we can detect  wrong notes. The brain is still comparing the real output of our playing, sound/pitch, to the predicted output that that is stored in the motor programs..

      Someone said that performance was not the time to slip into conscious control to try to correct mistakes, for the playing can fall apart.

      This issue of conscious versus unconscious control is one that I believe many musicians recognize.

      When I attended an open rehearsal of Schubert’s Death and the Maiden string quartet perhaps forty years ago, Arnold Steinhardt, the first violinist of the Guarneri String Quartet, spoke of how the final passage was far too fast to be played with conscious control of his hands and fingers.

      So, perhaps, that’s the rub, the tempo.  

      Can a pianist, or any musician, use more conscious control when playing a slow movement than a fast movement? It’s an interesting question. What do you think? 

      Is a pianist more conscious of their movements in a slower variation of the Goldbergs than a faster variation?

      • Pediatrician
      • a_weymann
      • 9 days ago
      • Reported - view

       ay, there’s the rub. I absolutely think that in slow pieces that require exquisite shaping of each sound, and of the relations of sounds to each other (as in legato playing, crescendo and decrescendo etc.), a conscious and highly intentional control of motor and sensory processes involved in tone production is desirable, and indeed indispensable. 

      • Larry_K
      • 9 days ago
      • Reported - view

       It stands to reason that more conscious control is possible during slow pieces. I wonder if I will find this discussed in one of the papers in the book. I hope so.

      It does seem to me , though, that the nature of the piano puts tremendous demands on the conscious system, such that processing is pushed to the unconscious. I am thinking of the line in Palmer’s paper that mentions thousands of pitch events, 8-12 a second.

      Other instruments, such as the violin, follow a single musical line, and cannot generate the sheer number of notes that are possible on the piano. 

      A violin can sustain a single pitch for a long time with the bow, but the piano is, to use Garrick Ohlsson’s characterization, “ a box of decrescendos.” The notes are always dying away.

      I think that encourages the writing of dense, difficult music, which increases the cognitive load even at a slow tempo. After all, we are grabbing notes with ten fingers. Pity the organists who add two or more notes with their feet. 

      By the way, a “rub” is any obstacle that impedes the rolling of a ball in lawn bowling, a popular game in Shakespeare’s time. The line “there’s the rub” is from Hamlet’s “To be or not to be” soliloquy, in case anyone doesn’t know.

      I fear there are multiple rubs that limit the ability to playing consciously, not just tempo, but also complexity.

    • Larry_K
    • 9 days ago
    • Reported - view

     It’s interesting that piano is so well studied because it is possible to analyze a performance based on MIDI output. This is mentioned in the Palmer paper. 
     

    Someone has offered to let me test their software which analyzes a performance and compares it to the representation of the piece in a MusicXML file.

    My piano, Yamaha DYUS5, can produce MIDI messages when I play acoustically. I don’t suppose your piano produces MIDI messages, does it? 

    I thought the software might help you get a handle on that Ravel piece. After all, you are only allowed an error rate of 3%, haha.

    This week, the radio program Exploring Music has been featuring French composers. It did a  segment on Emmanuel Chabrier. Have you played his music? Ravel adored him and wrote a piece entitled “In the manner of Chabrier.”

    Funny enough, we are off to France on Friday. My wife is French. We have to visit the relatives. We will also be visiting Malta.

      • Pediatrician
      • a_weymann
      • 9 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I do know Ravel’s “A la manière de Chabrier” and his “A la manière de Borodin”; they’re both charming. I’ve never played anything by Chabrier, though. My piano is a Yamaha AvantGrand N1, so it could well be that it produces a MIDI signal, but I don’t know what that means or how to capture it. 😂 My understanding of acoustic and audiovisual technology is the same as a caveman’s. 

      • Larry_K
      • 9 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Haha, well, I am here to help! I spent forty years writing software. I am pretty good at putting systems together and debugging them.

      The good news is that you have a system in the N1 that is transmitting note messages (MIDI) with velocity when you play, unlike a purely acoustic instrument.

      So, you will be able to use software to analyze your accuracy in real time. You would need a few cables and perhaps an interface to a laptop.
       

      With my piano, I can use something called a “USB to Host” port to plug directly into a USB C port on my MacBook Air to receive the MIDI messages.
       

      You would be a good test subject, as you are an advanced player. If you’re game, I will demonstrate the software and let you decide its utility. 

      I had a talk with Claude AI. I believe a post hoc analysis tool is more useful than a live analysis tool, and that approach simplifies a difficult problem. I could possibly build something myself.

      It’s wonderful that you have played the Ravel piece in the style of Chabrier. I think Chabrier wrote challenging piano music, so, it might be something you’d be interested in exploring.

      • Larry_K
      • 8 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I asked Claude AI to work up the design of a post hoc analysis tool that would compare an actual performance, captured in MIDI, to a representation of the piece in MusicXML.

      Here is the result, 

      https://claude.ai/share/0c68a8eb-3983-42df-b77f-8c8b9744b1ec

      Can you read it? 

      The matching problem is a difficult one, especially the detection of tempo irregularities and misalignment of hands together playing. 

      I am hoping to avoid having to try to write such a tool but Claude AI is excited to build it for me, lol.

      One of the issues in building an analyzer is that someone has to provide what is called “ground truth.” That means, notes missed, notes rushed, misalignment of hands, etc. 
       

      I think I can do this with the pieces I learn with my teacher, as that will give me input into where I played well, and where I made mistakes.

      Without a teacher, I feel that ”ground truth” is on shaky ground, lol.

      By the way, interpretation is outside the scope of the tool. Perhaps that is a deal breaker for advanced players, I don’t know.

      • Larry_K
      • 8 days ago
      • Reported - view

        As for Chabrier, Claude AI recommended these easier pieces for me, 

       

      Pièces pittoresques (1881), the slower movements:

      • Mélancolie (No. 5) is slow and lyrical, with little technical difficulty. The challenge is tone and voicing.
      • Idylle (No. 6) is gentle and pastoral, and a good place to work on shaping long lines.
      • Paysage (No. 1) is moderate, with a relaxed pastoral feel.
      • Sous-bois (No. 4) is light and flowing, with some quick passagework.

      and said to avoid these as more difficult,

      • Bourrée fantasque is his best-known solo work, but it's virtuosic, with jumps and rhythmic drive that are very hard to make convincing.
      • Menuet pompeux, Improvisation, and Tourbillon are all hard.

Content aside

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