Group 2
Welcome to the NEW TWO WEEK INTENSIVE on tonebase!
Improving your Scales with Dominic Cheli
We will be working on different techniques on building speed, virtuosity, and confidence in our scales with assignments posted by Dominic!
Post your progress with videos and written commentary on how things are going for you!
- Course Period: May 13 - 25
- Class Size: ALL are welcome!
- Optional check-In via Zoom: May 22 at 11am PT
- ZOOM MEETING LINK:
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/87650346065?pwd=iNGsfHMSqMVopfHw3bnxalYfaDuwpe.1
Assignment #1
In this assignment Dominic discusses "grouping practice" for your scales. This is a great way to increase your speed, finger control and independence.
- Choose a scale to work on (could be C major, or a relevant scale from your repertoire)
- Let's work on "2 note groupings"
- Start slow, start hands separate, and increase to 4 octave scales with both hands together
- IMPORTANT: Remember to keep the proper fingering at all times for the scale! (The Standard fingering found in any technique book, or in your decided fingering for a scale passage).
- Between each grouping, take as much time as you like, and focus on fast movements
- If a group poses trouble, stop and work on that specific part of the scale!
Assignment #2
1. Focus on your thumb and (optional) take a video of it!
2. Choose a passage to apply grouping practice to, and share why!
3. Make sure to focus on your scales and practice hands separately, even just polishing/perfecting a few groups! Don't need to complete the whole scale!
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To help me do this exercise I noted the fingering at each stop, the third note, like this :
Octave 1 : C - left hand 1 - right hand 1 (The start)
F - 2 - 1
B - 2 - 4
Octave 2: E - 3 - 3
A - 3 - 3
Ocatve3 : D - 4 - 2
G - 1 - 2
Octave4: C - 1 - 1
F - 2 - 1
B - 2 - 4
Coming down :
Octave4 : A 3-3
E. 3-3
Octave3: B 2-4
F. 2-1
C 1-1
Octave2: G 1-2
D 4-2
Octave1: A 3-3
E 3-3
D 4-2
At this point D 4-2 to change the scale C in scale D I did
Ocatve 1 G 1-1
C Sharp 2-4
Octave 2 F Sharp 3 -3
B 3-3
I presume that I have to do this for each change of scale, D to E, to F, and to C,
Is the fingering for the scale change correct?
Nothing the figering helps me to do this exercise.
Do you agree with this Dominic ?
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Aline Valade You should always use the C major fingering that is standardized! So for the RH you should always make sure that C = 1, D = 2, E = 3, etc... and stick to that fingering always!
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Dominic Cheli You are right Dominic, I made a mistake in the start of the C major scale about the fingering, sorry for that. I corrected it! Thank you for your observation!
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I'm looking forward to putting more work into this TWI! I'll do C# minor, since it's featured in the Chopin etude I'm working on.
Impressions from the video and initial questions:
- It's just too cool that you learned grouping from Babayan.
- "Ability to stop on a dime is the essence of finger independence"--interesting, since I think we tend to think about finger independence as the ability to *start* a finger moving on a dime.
- "2 note grouping" -- terminology confuses me also, since it sounds like 3 notes. Aline Valade's comment from yesterday helped make sense of it (thanks!)
- Boris Berman recommends playing scales with fingers "living" at different "floors" above the keys (see image text below, from Notes from the Pianist's Bench), with higher floors being for passages with more active articulation. Would you recommend this? I guess the related question is about how much finger action we should "feel" when playing scales, or if each note should have some feeling of arm weight dropping on it, albeit super fast (I know some respected teachers would say the fingers should always start at the keys and arm weight should drive everything).
- It would also be helpful to see your thoughts on what the thumb should do during fast scales, particularly the amount of vertical thumb movement vs. arm dropping, and whether the thumb should be curled and if yes, how much.
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Marc M I had the same exact question about my thumbs, so I mentioned it at my lesson with Jarred yesterday. He showed me an interesting way to "pivot" that I think he talks about in his 30 minute Tonebase "Deep Dive on Scales". There are many teachers in that video series, so I'm hoping to watch them all.
I was also confused about the "2 notes" (it sounds like 4 notes to me), but Aline Valade cleared that up. Merci bien, chere Aline!
I guess it's more like 1 starting note, 2 quick notes and an ending note.
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Gail Starr Yep that is right, the bookend notes technically don't induce speed improvement, it is that 2 note group in the middle where the speed really is!
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Marc M Yep stopping the fingers is very difficult: for example ending trills, stopping trills is difficult and part of the art of the trill!
Sure, the 2 note grouping refers to the speed boost of 2 notes in the middle where the virtuosity lays. The bookend notes don't count for this. But that is just how I was taught! You can of course label these groups by however many notes as you wish, as long as you practice them in the above manner!
I agree in principle with Berman, and indeed feel my fingers dropping into the key as I move my hand horizontally. I would think less about alot of finger action, but rather dropping fingers with some minimal activation from the forearm. I like the idea of distance from key = more speed to key and therefore = more power
My thumb is quite relaxed actually, and I focus on hand position movements in horizontal motions, with minimal turning, rotating of the hand. Very little vertical movement, and thumb is not overly curled, just naturally. I can make a video speaking more about the thumb!
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Dominic Cheli Yes Dominic that will be great if you do about the thumb! It will be really appreciated by many of us, I think!
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Dominic Cheli Cool--I'll focus on the speed of those two middle notes, then. Video speaking about the thumb would be helpful. Thank you!
Gail Starr Thanks! I think I remember what he said about pivoting, but I'll have to watch that video again anyway. I've been reading Berman's book and am finding that I have many more tools in the toolkit...and lots of technical stuff to explore and practice, haha.
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Marc M I need to read the Berman book. In the middle of a good Debussy bio at the moment.
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Gail Starr Neat. Which biography? I love reading good composer biographies.
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Marc M
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Dominic Cheli Thank you for the week 2 video! Sadly, I missed the live discussion...work called.
Here's my week 2 assignment. I worked on the c major scale (LH descending only), and then the descending scale near the end of Chopin's Op. 10 no. 4 etude. Any feedback would be appreciated!
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Marc M Nice work! I like that you specifically stop and work on the parts of the scale that are weaker. No need to start from the "top" each time!
I notice that you say some of these are "hard for you for some reason" but you are able to work through them and get them much smoother, so that is great!
I would consider taking more time between groups - and trying to go even faster actually in the groups themselves! Let the fingers be quite light. I hear some groups got that "fast flair" in the fingers while others are little more "stuck" sounding, I think those fast notes are sometimes a hair louder than I would recommend, playing them softer can help with improving speed!
Good idea to put hands together with the grouping!
Sounding better and better!
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Dominic Cheli Thank you for your feedback, both here and for my first video featuring the scale only. It's funny, I didn't realize my left wrist was weirdly high until making that first video. Lowering it feels awkward but gets better results...looks like I'll need to re-train my left hand technique, haha.
Thanks again--this TWI was helpful!
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A question about finding just the right place to stop during grouping practice. I find that when the stopping point is a thumb, I'm stopping with my 3rd or 4th finger already in place above and across the thumb, ready for the next note. Typically the fingers will already be there by the time the thumb note is struck. Is that the position in which a person should be pausing the motion?
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Mary I think that sounds correct, but I'm a newbie at grouping so let's see what other folks say.
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Mary This is correct! When you play and stop on the thumb, you fingers should be ready in the air for next position, this is great!
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Here's my week 1 video. C# minor. I stop and repeat sections here and there where I mix up fingerings or miss notes.
My left hand has always felt significantly more clunky and less accurate, and I'm trying to figure out what it's doing differently compared to my right hand--it feels less supported and the fingers are more inclined to buckle. I suspect it has something to do with the dome of the hand or how I extend my other fingers when playing, but it might be something else.
I took video at keybed level, figuring that would be a helpful perspective. Now that I look at it, I'm not sure if my wrists are at a good height.
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Marc M Hey Marc!
I would recommend a more neutral wrist - it does seem a bit high which isn't doing your thumb any favors as it is already short, and the high wrist takes it farther from the key!
I do think your fingers are sometimes a little flatter than they should be, which always makes things more difficult!
I know that you need to play the black keys which by nature of the piano forces you to play with slightly flatter fingers - but maybe try and keep fingers a bit more curved and move wrist into keyboard rather than flatten fingers to reach the black keys!
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Looking forward to this so much, as it has arrived at a perfect time for me.
I have been so disabled by the wretched respiratory virus, which has plagued the world seemingly (another one!). I have only just shaken it off: yesterday was the first day that I felt that I was finally better!
I am on two TB platforms, flute as well as piano, and my plan for the coming week is to go back through missed flute assignments but concentrate on this scales one for the piano.
I did Dominic's scale course up to the lesson on three octaves, which included grouping. I find doing four octaves makes more sense, particularly for contrary motion, so the first course of action is to go back to DC's scales course and do the four octave lesson.
I promise to upload a video in before we reach Wk 2, which will inspire to work out how to use all the new recorder equipment that I have purchased/collected!
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Roy James-Pike Hi Roy!
Feel free to share your work or videos!
Let me know how it is going!
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Dominic Cheli Thanks for reaching out!
They say be careful what you wish for, although I would not say that personally, as this adage ends with a preposition, which is such bad grammar!
I worked quite consistently on sorting out how to make better recordings. I am really pleased with my understanding of the processes. This is work in progress and there’s room for improvement, which is one of the reasons why I did not upload any videos.
Life happens and every time I think there’s space for me then the space just dissipates. This time it was due to the ill-health of one of our two cats. He is fifteen, has diabetes caused by the steroids that are given to address his chronic colonic stricture.
This week he stopped eating because he couldn’t excrete, so lots of veterinary intervention including several days’ hospital stay in the Cambridge University Veterinary Hospital (40 miles away) - so intensive visits back and forth and lots more medication!
I see that other people were confused about the groupings. I worked through all of the major scales in the first week trying to find one that flowed through this exercise. I settled on D flat and F sharp majors (Chopin comes to mind), and then went to E flat, B flat and A flat.
I did separate hands over several octaves. I found working in fourths really odd. It works for C to F in C major, but then I kept stopping on the note before the thumb and then using my arm to move the hand to a starting thumb position for the next group, e.g. B on 4 (RH) followed by C D E, using 1, 2, 3. This is similar to your point about the arms travelling out to the extremities of the piano, albeit mine are in chunks rather than floating across the keyboard but there’s hope that this will come in time.
This is probably easier to explain in F sharp major so fingering-wise I grouped in the RH, 2, 3, 4, T, then 2, 3, T, etc., with a little turn around at the top to come down in the same way. I think this enable me to travel across the keys to use the thumb rather than rotating.
The LH is similar, 4, 3, 2, T, then 2, 3, T.
My brain could not handle doing ‘2-note’ groupings, by which I understand the second and subsequent groupings to consist of 3 notes, effectively, because the first and last notes are the book-ends for the inner group of two notes.
This was difficult for me, particularly on the way down, as I struggle to play rapidly with the intention of landing on the 4 after the thumb, or the 3, via the 4. I did stop and just do those groupings but it’s not fit for public consumption, hence the lack of a video.
Also, I found the groupings in fourths, up and down left me with a spare note at the end - the tonic.
Another lesson learned for me is that I need to diarise the key dates in the TWIs, which I have not done to date, albeit, I missed the Zoom meeting because we were in London for our Wednesday evening dance lesson.
Had I been in the Zoom meting I would have asked you to please use an overhead camera more. This would help for us to see exactly what you are doing in rapid exercises such as this one.
Two Week Intensives are never two weeks for me. My plan now is to take some of those awkward cross-over groups and do those methodically for just a few minutes each day, and working through all of the major and minor scales, over (a long) time.
Thanks Dominic for your sterling work on Tonebase!
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As a Level 1 beginner, I’m still struggling with the coordination between two hands. Here is my assignment video, but separate hands. Will update if I make any progress with both hands together
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Shide Zhang Great work for being only a level 1 beginner!
I would recommend to play much lighter the fast notes! Helps with speed.
Try and take more time between groups, wait longer, and really try to fling fingers through the group in one motion!
This is great work though and I encourage you to keep it up!
Take more time between groups, and try to lighten things up and push the speed higher!
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