changing piano technique
Hi Tonebase friends, Merry Xmas! I recently changed to a new teacher who taught exclusively playing with arm weight (dropping motion) and not lifting fingers, while my previous two teachers taught a combination of arm weight and lifting fingers. I'm practicing this new technique slowly with scale/familiar old music (as I have the temptation/habit to raise/lift fingers as I move). I watched Robert's Taubman teaching videos on Tonebase, as my new teacher's technique is somewhat based on Taubman although she is not a certified Taubman teacher. I'm wondering if you have similar experience having to change your piano technique, and welcome any comments on your experience and how long it took you to get comfortable. I feel that I am only practicing technique, not able to play pieces for now (because I revert back to playing with fingers quickly). Just wonder how long this phase would be in general? I'm between level 3 and level 4 in Tonebase.
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Iâve been working with the idea of the fingers as the bristles of a brush that are moved by the arm as a brush handle. A beautifully coordinated technique has a fine balance and expert timing of lateral arm motion and vertical finger movement, the extent of articulation depending on the style. If you have all four levers doing their appropriate job and coordinated to what youâre playing (fingers/ forearm vertically, hand/wrist/upper arm laterally) your technique will be more comprehensive. Itâs never an either/or equation! Good luck!!!
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George Lopez Love this response, and love your consciousness of your actions. I am less conscious of the detailed actions but have been adopting a range of actions from the teachings on TB. I am now aware (2+ years after returning to the piano) of my fingers playing like 'bristles of a brush' (love that metaphor!) sometimes and then much more claw-like elsewhere. Thanks for the inspiration! Is there a TB course on the four levers that you mention? Season's Greetings!
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George Lopez I could not have said it better. Yes, it is not an equation of either or. At the end, everything has to add; add to your freedom, while playing, to imagination, to your stamina, and for sure, it adds to your ability to tackle harder repertoire. I think precision, freedom, and desired sound are guidelines we should never lose track of. They are like beacons that guide us In our musical journey. This is only my humble opinion. All the best and best of Christmases.
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Helo Alice, I had a method when I taught flute, which came from his teacher, and beyond. This was to take students through all the stages of development regardless of where they were when they came to me. It sounds like you may be going through the same. I would see it as a good opportunity to refresh oru understanding of arm weight, which may be having more emphasis presently, but which may then mover to a fuller range of possibilities. I am dancer too and dance teachers do exactly the same. They want to make sure you covered all bases. Enjoy! Sounds like a great choice of teacher! Seasons' Greetings!
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I'm following this with interest. Not really doing Taubman, but am very interested in it and am practicing scales and Hanon using my understanding of her technique. My results are mixed now b/c I have trouble with breaks whenever I move thumb under or 3rd finger over. I don't think I know what to do w/thumb, but do think I might know about the 3 finger over "flop"?
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Linda Clover Have you tried Penelope Roskell's alternative fingerings, which avoid the harshness of LH 4 and thumb on the white notes?
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Roy James-Pike Thank you, Roy for sharing that with me. Although I have a fair bit of her information, I have not read it all and am not familiar with those alternative fingerings. That sounds like a useful resource and I will look into it and try. Again, thank you for the lead.
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Hi Alice,
I agree with Georgeâs comments. I donât think a technique built on arm weight exclusively can lead to a comprehensive technique. However, to answer your question, a complete revamp of technique can take years and depends largely on how much time you devote to practicing it as well as how long you used the previous technique. Years ago I studied with a Taubman teacher over several months. It was frustrating and I never quite âgot itâ. Yet, it now is a part of a technique I use today in terms of rotation but also working on keeping my fingers from becoming active when they arenât actually playing.
I would recommend NOT using familiar pieces as a means of practicing your new technique. You are much more likely to revert to old habits while playing music you already learned. Try digging into short sections of new repertoire instead. Good luck with your journey! -
Alice, a very Merry Christmas to you too!
Using your arm weight to produce a more beautiful and sonorous sound is a mark of the Russian School of music and a technique used by most great pianists.
When practicing slowly, however, focusing on finger dexterity and movement helps to produce a clearer and more precise sound. But you canât think about fingers when youâre performing. Then itâs all about your arms and wrists creating a beautiful sound with, hopefully, long melody lines that carry the listener along.You might look at Heinrich Neuhaus book for more guidance as well. I suspect your teacher is trying to get you focused on sound sonority for the moment. Enjoy!
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Iâd take the âonly play with arm weightâ idea with a grain of salt. The Taubman approach doesnât exclude the fingersâfrom what Iâve seen by Durso and Dunn, it sounds like Taubmann teachers are always talking about âfingerhandandarmâ working together. So, fingers are working too. However, itâs possible your teacher is trying to address what she considers to be an over-reliance on fingers (which can be stressful and can produce a thin tone) by insisting a lot on arm weight work, and once you can use arm weight better sheâd have you incorporate your fingers and hands more. I canât say for sure though!
If she has you at the end of your patience, itâs helpful for your teacher to know that, so Iâd suggest explaining the exercises are wearing down your spirit and ask when it may be possible to work on something youâd find more rewarding. All good teachers are interested in maintaining their studentsâ love for playing the instrument, no?
For additional perspective, you may also enjoy Boris Bermanâs mechanics of piano playing course on ToneBase. Heâs a legend, and what he has to say about using fingers, hands (even palms, describing their opening and closing as being âlike an octopusâ haha) and arms is really interesting. Plus, it is conciseâŚnot a long watch.
Disclaimer: Iâm an amateur, level 6 of I remember correctly, so take this for what itâs worth! :)-
Marc M Yes! I studied with Boris in Holland for 3 summers in the 90âs and he was very systematic about his approach to technique.
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Changing teachers is hard work!
you are describing Leschetizky method. There are several good books on Amazon and any number of demonstrations on YouTube which may help you in your journey.
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ALICE It's interesting to hear that you are undergoing a change in piano technique, or what the Taubman approach calls retraining. I am also in the same boat, so to speak, and my journey started at the very end of Dec. 2021. I have been taking private lessons from a certified Taubman teacher (recommended by Robert Durst when I wrote to him through the Golandsky Institute website about finding teachers.) I happen to have a certified Taubman teacher close to where I live, which I consider lucky. We first started on Zoom for a few months, and then in-person lessons, once a week. The first few lessons were about the basic Taubman techniques of just dropping your arm to play a note, rotation, in and out, role of the thumb, crosses. Then about a month later, we started with exercises from a book by Persichetti ('Reflective Keyboard Exercises'). They are not as boring as the Hanon or Czerny exercises, and it's a good book to teach about rotations and crosses. We never played scales or arpeggios, except later on, there are some arpeggio exercises in the Persichetti book, but they are not specific to a specific key.
About 5 months later, she had me play Bach's 2 part invention #6 in E major. This is a good piece to learn about rotations. By about 6 months, I was learning Chopin Nocturne Op. 55 no. 1 in F minor. I would say that it took me about 5 - 6 months to get comfortable with rotations. It does require a lot to patience and at the same time, quite a bit of challenge. I would agree with most of the comments here that you should try and refrain from playing the pieces that you've played before, as you may 'lapse' into your old habits. But with this approach, I actually look forward to practicing, as I know what I need to practice instead of just practicing for practice sake. One of my teacher's saying is that 'Practice makes permanent'. This means that it makes a difference as to what you practice and how you practice. If it's practicing the wrong thing, then that will stay with you for a long time. You need to make sure you are practicing what you want to achieve.
When I started with Taubman, it's like I was starting from scratch, but the entire effort is well worth it. A comment on 'arm weight'. This term was never used in my lessons, but rather. to use your arm to play. Your fingers are involved, but not active in playing a note. Your arm puts the note down. Your fingers happen to come along with it. You need to also feel that your palm is involved in part of the process, and that it is facing downward to the keyboard after you play a note. Another key is to make sure that your arm/hand is not 'held up'. They are just resting on the keyboard, but with your wrist level with the arm and hand.
There is a lot more to the process, and if you want to chat more about my experience, feel free to message me on Tonebase. Merry Christmas!
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Hi Alice,
If you like how your teacher plays and trust them, follow their advice in every detail, and you should be ok quite fast.
I would not practise using old pieces you already know. Do it with a new repertoire to avoid triggering old habits and muscle memory.
Personally, as others have mentioned here, I work with arms and fingers. The arms should move the fingers with the proper movements and weight, and the fingers will give the final touch.
But again, this is something to be decided when you choose your piano teacher. After that, you will see the results only if you follow their guidance in full.
Enjoy this amazing journal of learning a new path in music and adding up to your artistic toolbox.
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I had a new teacher who flipped me from more of a finger style to a pushing technique with weight and a low wrist after 30 plus years. Now I have what is likely tenosynovitis in my right wrist. You need to be really careful.
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Hi Alice! There are a lot of technical things to learn. But the underlying question for me would be ,whyâ. Whatâs the purpose of changing your technic? I have two different experiences in that direction- one was really good. I add up a lot to my technic
(shaping, weight, using wrist) with a new teacher, but never forget my fingers. And never stopped playing pieces. Took me one year. And the goal was to have the technic to create a more colorful sound and more different ways to hit the key. And the other experiences was very bad - should forget my fingers and play only with arms. Got worse and finished with this teacher. Also Robert Durso told, that he never change the technic of a pianist if he can play the piece. Only if he has difficulties than he looks what have to be changed. This year I have had some lessons with a German teacher in rotation technic (R. Durso recommended him) and again I add something to my technic. So look where do you want to go. Good luck.
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Many thanks to you all for your responses so far. They gave me a lot of food for thought.
To clarify, I played with active fingers by lifting to reach the key and dropping with fingers (not with forearm), producing a thin sound. The new teacher emphasizes the dropping motion without lifting nor dropping just the fingers to produce a full sound - fingers are completely passive. She wants me to stay on the surface of keys, drop from the surface of keys, and drop each note at this stage. She also said thumb should feel super heavy, and never lifts (so heavy that it can't be lifted), only drop. Arm can move laterally and in/out to get to the key, then drop the finger/hand/forearm to play the key.
I'm a bit confused because I like all three teachers' playing, but the first two teachers focus both arm weight and active fingers (though I didn't really understand arm weight part - I was more playing with fingers). I'll clarify with new teacher whether she'll incorporate fingers after I'm comfortable with dropping forearm, though I expect a "no" answer from what she describes now.
I appreciate all the resources you mentioned and look into them today.
Alice
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ALICE Hello Alice;
I hope you are doing well.
There are MANY piano techniques. There is not just one way to do something. I think all great pianists create their own technique, just as you will. Take what you have learned from your teachers and create your own. Every hand and body is different. You have the knowledge and the tools to see what works best for you. Good luck.
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Hello
I have been studying the Taubman technique now for approximately a year and a half with a Taubman instructorâand its been a long year and a half! LOL. After playing piano as a minor instrument with ingrained habits for so many years (I am 71) it has been difficult to completely release old habits and be comfortable with new ones.
I chose to take this huge step after developing tendinitis in my right arm while studying Chopinâs Barcarolle. Obviously, this was the straw that broke the camelsâ back, as they used to say. Any time I played difficult pieces, e.g. Chopin Polonaises, it would be suffering marathon to reach the end without totally freezing up from tension.
I am finally studying real music (still working along with a C major scale) and it is apparent to me that using video tapes of the technique without instruction would not work- for whatever reason, my left hand is not cooperating fully. Old habits die hard.
I can say that when I play using the technique fully and consciously , I can avoid the tension that plagued me for so many years.
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Allan Freilich My understanding is that Taubman's origin was to compare child-like development with the injuries that arrive later in adult pianists.
I am a flute player, who is a little over your age (73 now) and have returned to the flute many times over the years. This time around I am avoiding the most difficult repertoire that I attempted to get off the page forty years' ago.
Also, Chopin tells us that C major is the most difficult scale. My understanding is that his starting point was B and F# major, along with flat major.
I like flat keys and use Penelope Roskell's alternative fingerings, which avoid the stress for the LH thumb in going under 4 on the white keys.
It's well worth watching Dominic as his action is in the arm as he travels across the piano, say in arpeggios. There is a slight movement as the thumb moves under but nothing like what we were taught many years ago.
Loving that you are determined to keep at it, as I am!
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Roy James-Pike Allan Freilich I am in the same 'era' as both of you. Allan Freilich I've also been learning the Taubman method for about a year and a half. I guess it's never too late to learn something new! Happy New Year to both of you!
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One thing that has been important to me about technique is that all levers from tip to shoulder are being used just in proportion to what sound is required so fingers, wrist, forearm and upper arm are always buoyant and supple to some degree where in baroque there could be more finger emphasis, in classical more hand say, or in big romantic repertoire the arms are more active. If your attitude is technique equals sound and youâve developed all the possible coordinated movements between the playing levers like using the two knobs of an Etch-A-Sketch to create curves (vertical PLUS lateral movement) then youâve got a total technique. Just add sonic imagination and an understanding of style and phrasing ET VOILĂ!! This is such a fun and important topic. Letâs keep it going!!!
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George Lopez I think I have all 'the levers' but would still like more clarity from tuition on this approach.
I am going to do the Taubman course just to make sure.
Please let me know if this is to be found in Taubman, or somewhere else.
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Roy James-Pike I am not doing the TB Taubman course 'just to make sure'. I am going to do it because it is intriging and seems like the way to go.
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This idea was just an âahaâ moment after seeing an exhibit of DaVinci in Chicago years ago on his engineering designs of transverse motion levers where a knob moving in a circular motion moves a lever in a lateral plane and realizing that although the piano is operated vertically we have to move laterally to create artistic phrasing. So I began studying the levers of piano technique and simply noticed that we have two vertical levers (fingers/forearm) and two horizontal levers (hand-wrist/upper arm) that need to work in tandem. For those who come to this organically itâs a bit much but Iâve been able evolve a more virtuosic approach through this insight.
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