Mastering Tricky Passages and answering your questions!

Alexander Harvey Hi Alexander, it seems like the staccato marks give you license to use the same finger (the thumb here) on the repeated notes, perhaps with a slight lift after the first legato upper note. I, as a fellow amateur, woulld automatically do the 5111 here & wouldn't even think about the others. -- if nothing else it will give you a lot of practice working with the repeated notes!  It will be interesting to hear what Dominic has to say about this. 

Peter Golemme Interesting, since I wrote this I had dismissed 5111 as a possibility simply because it seems to impose a limit on how fast I can play the movement as a whole. But if it wasn't slowing me down, then 5111 would definitely be my preference too.

Alexander Harvey Yes, at first glance, without actually trying it out (except here on my computer keyboard!) , it seems rather convoluted to try to slip in the alternate finger. In my case, I would fear that it would be the kind of thing that could trip me up in performance, trying to remember to alternate the fingers and getting all tense and twisted in trying to implement it.

Even without hearing you play, I believe that this (the repeating thumb) is something you CAN do at any but the most ridicously too-fast tempos, and if you haven't figured out how to do it yet, this is your opportunity. 

A couple of things I would experiment with here would include a light and quick shake of the wrist for at least 1 or 2 of those notes and also trying to keep in mind not to "dig in" physically with the thumb, even when you want to emphasize the notes (to name one of my most persistent bad habits) Just a quick touch and then relax and let go, or be relaxed enough so that it feels more like a bounce than a deliberate press of the thumb.  Relaxation -- easier said than done!

Peter Golemme Well yes it is supposed to be played quite fast. But I am going to spend more time trying 5111, Thank you! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA8m1QPv1yQ

Alexander Harvey Well now, I was just about to compliment you on a rather nice performance before I realized that the player was Alfred Brendel!  I just tried tapping along with my thumb at an 8th note pace and it got tiring pretty quickly!  but was able to do it for a measure or two in a row before lagging.  that perhaps is another exercise you might want to try.  And I thought of another one while sitting at my actual piano -- try to play that second 8th note as 2 16ths and then still it the third one in time.  of course you'd probably have to slow the tempo down., but you might then find that you have tricked yourself into playing the 3 notes at the tempo you want!

Anyway, I'm just an unfrozen former bar room piano player who loves trading notes with other pianists.     Dominic I'm sure is going to have some great suggestions for you.  If you've never attended one of these sessions you're going to love it!

Peter Golemme Well Dominic's session was in the middle of the night in my time zone, I did spend a bit of time trying 5111 again. It definitely slows me down considerably compared to 5121 and 5131. I also watched a bunch of videos of others playing it and everyone seems to use 5121. With that said I bet a really percussive sound could be had by someone who is able to play this using 5111! 

Alexander Harvey Hi Alexander, just to follow up, I tried these fingerings out while at the piano instead of sitting in my easy chair.  I must confess that once I got used to the 5121 fingering, it seemed to go much more gracefully with much less eventual fatigue than when trying to repeat the thumb on every note.  I think it's because repeating with the thumb requires a "lift" of this fairly weighty digit, whereas using the 2 allows for more of a "swivel" which I think allows the wrist to do more of the work.  You swivel the wrist to plunk down note 3 with finger 2, and then when you swivel back the thumb kind of falls onto note 4, without a separate lift and re-plunk that you would have to do if you had just plunked note 3 with it.  

So, may I amend my answer?  NOW I think 5121 works better. and I think 5121 works better than 5131, because 5131 requires a longer finger cross and probably a bigger 'swivel', and so it's more work than using finger 2, which is just sitting there practically on the note already, with nothing better to do at that particular moment!  Good luck with your practicing; this piece should bring you much joy, whichever fingering you end up with!

Margie Edgar Hi Margie, memorizing is something I fight with too. Recently I have collected some ideas on youtube (Aaron Petit, Mark Morley-Fletcher) and I red a book (How to memorize Music). One big change I have done was to memorize the piece directly. You start a new piece and you start memorizing too. Then each time you practice, you practice from memory. It’s still a long way, but it works for me. 🙋‍♀️

Margie Edgar I hope you don't practice your trolling too much. 😉 Sorry, couldn't resist.

For trills I found that practicing them every day with scales makes a difference over time. All finger combinations and also with held down notes.

Kerstin Kerstin thanks, I’ll check the references out and try memorizing from the beginning.   

Bart I practice trills a lot but not every day.   Will need to shift to see if daily will make a difference, thanks for the feedback.

Margie Edgar I never worried much about practising trills. My experience has been that as my fingers in general became stronger, my trills got faster and more convincing. I would think just practising Hanon, scales, arpeggios etc tends to improve trills.

Alexander Harvey I’ve practiced Hanson and czerny so many years.   Maybe I’m too mindless with them.    Thanks for responding.   

Margie Edgar The thing that really worked for me, and I think a lot of people, is simply having the patience to practice the notes slowly and at the speed that you can play each note perfectly. The other thing to remember is you can often simplify or even omit the trill in a performance if you can't get it. Don't let it frustrate you or ruin your enjoyment. Good luck!

Margie Edgar what has helped me get better (gradually!) with trills is always to work on a Bach piece, especially his inventions.

Jenny Young 

Margie Edgar 

thanks, I’ll dig a couple out of my pile.

Kerstin Hi Kersten.  That's interesting to hear.  You've shared with us some great performances of some pretty complex pieces that you had memorized (e.g. your Chopin Sonata comes to mind!) , and so that's a pretty good endorsement of your method.

I've started experimenting with the same thing  -- trying to memorize right out of the box -especially with my Well-Tempered Clavier project.  It can make for slow going, but I've found that memorizing always gives you much better insight into the pieces than you can get from anything else. Something about trying to explain a passage to yourself in a way that will help you memorize it almost always helps me see things that I hadn't seen before and understand the passage better.

In college I had the opportunity to study for a while with a great concert pianist named Miklos Schwalb.  He used to say "First I memorize a piece, then I learn it."

Margie Edgar Hi Margie, I agree with virtually everything said above, especially about the Bach. I'm trying to go through the whole Well Tempered Clavier, and one motivation was so that I could improve my trills.  I'm about 1/6th through and it has really helped already.  

One thing virtually every Tonebase lesson on this subject has emphasized is deciding upon the EXACT notes , including the exact number, you want to play for the trill (factoring in the eventual speed you'll want to play it at) and sticking to it. Then, as you practice increasing the speed, you are challenging yourself to play that same number of notes at each increasing increment, rather than "cheating" by dropping notes or fudging them as you increase the tempo.  Then, when you have the trills adequately learned at your chosen tempo, you can get more creative and spontaneous with them, such as, yes, by dropping some or all the notes if you are too tense about the execution in performance, or even, in those moments of full confidence, daring to throw in a couple of extra notes!