Shaping counterpoint
I am looking for some ideas what else I could to to get my counterpoint voices more independent.
I am working on Bach Fughetta in G BWV 902.
Hands seperate I know exactly where the sub-motives are, how to phrase them and have the left hand theme sound as the right hand.
When it comes to hands together, I need a second brain I don't have. It took me a week to coordinate the first 16 bars correctly, and even after that there are spots where my practice techniques don't really work, because I can either listen to left or right, so I keep losing the phrasing of one or the other hand.
I am NOT talking about how to get the notes of both hands together!!! I know how to practice hands together. It is about the counterpoint, the articulation of INDIVIDUAL voices, rather than the impression of one voice with accompaniment. I don't need tips like "practice in small sections" or "slowly raise metronome". It's about hearing and how to be able to focus on the right thing.
I have done all the usual things to get all notes hands together, that's my starting point. I can play those bars with both hands without glitches. But the voice independence is the issue. Atm many stretches are Melody+accompaniment (,one or the other hand leading), not 2 independent voices.
What I already tried, and helped at some bars, but not all:
- hands seperate, find the sub motives and make pencil markings.
- Stop at the ending of each submotive by enongating the last note
- same, hands together, first with left hand motives, then right hand.
- Hands together veeeeery slow: end each motive with a sharp staccato and obviously raised hand, trying to continue the other voice without break.
- Only playing every second motive in one hand, other hand plays all
Still I feel I have difficulties listening to both hands, so when I listen back on recordings I find myself having not shaped one hand correctly and played it more like accompaniment for some bars.
How can I get better at hearing both hands individually? Or do I have to go more physical, and not rely on ear? But train more where to lift my hand, without having listened to the other melody that momwnt, because I was focused on the other hand.
I mean, this is 2 part counterpoint and I am wrecked... how do people do 3 parts?
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Not sure if I'm reading all the things you've tried, but I think it helps to HEAR what you're trying to produce. And one way to help that would be
Play the right hand part alone (slowly or up to tempo), but using both hands. Then you can more easily emphasize one voice or another and train your ears.
Play the left hand part alone, using both hands where it makes sense to look for the sound you're trying to get.After you've got a bit more confidence, record yourself playing normally (both hands). You may find that as a listener, the different voices are more apparent than they are in real-time to you as performer... assuming you've worked on hearing them in slow practice.
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You are both probably way more advanced than I am but I am working on a 4 part Bach fugue. My teacher has me identify all four voices and color the lines in the score with four different colors; soprano, alto, tenor and bass. She then asks me to work on playing the voices separately, with expression and articulation, and I am now working on playing two parts together, varying the parts that I play, i.e. sometimes soprano, tenor; soprano alto, soprano bass, and so on until I a
can play any combination in two parts. The plan is then to progress to all combinations with three parts and ultimately four. She says that if I can hear all the parts and understand which is which, the audience will as well. We'll see...
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Stephen Hessert haha, that sounds WAY MORE advanced than I am!! Mine are only two voices same time.
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My favorite exercise for learning to shape counterpoint is to take a voice and sing it instead. For example, if you are practicing a two part invention, play the lower voice while singing the upper. Then play the upper voice while singing the lower. I found this to be super helpful—it sometimes even makes technical challenges magically vanish. Sometimes.
You don’t even have to sing in tune to benefit from the exercise, but a side effect is that it helps you with singing as well.
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This may sound extrange, but don't worry. What you're struggling with is one of the hardest toppics in piano playing and may take some time to develope. Most of the times, you will need to play more than one piece to overcome new challenges in piano. Take your time and you will get better at these things. You already seem to be doing things allright. Just take your time.
Now. For a more practical advise; try to play with both hands at the exact same volume, once you can do that, focus your atention at any hand individually while still playing at the same volume. Eventually your brain will split, like you where saying.
Another notsogood advise is lifting the elbow of the hand you want to sound softer, just a pinch. This will remove weight from your hand allowing you to play softer without much change in the way you are already playing.
I hope you overcome this. Happy practicing!
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Santiago Alvarez ah, that same volume thing is good advise. I am so trained in playing one hand softer, but that seems wrong here. Focusing on equal volume has an interesting effect on my brain haha, still some short circuits in my synapses, but I feel it's getting better!
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I like to exaggerate the loudness of each voice separately, when playing with two hands. So sometimes I will make Voice one extra loud the whole way through the piece, whether or not I want it to be the “lead“ voice at that time and place in the actual performance of the piece. And then I do that with the other voice. I do this in fugues with more voices as well. And I mean, I REALLY exaggerate the loudness! I hammer out the theme that I am emphasizing at the moment, figuring that I can always pull back on the fingers later, but it’s my way of learning to what it takes to bring out any specific section at any given time so that Later on I can give a specific part due emphasis when I want to.
