How long do you practice, and how?

Kerstin Wow Kerstin! That's fantastic! Concert with 2 big pieces from memory. I heard you play that Beethoven Sonata 7 (2nd movement) -It was awesome.  All the best on your recital.. Please post if you can. Best regards

Kerstin My daily practise ( working days ) are limited to evenings only after 8:30 PM. Typically around an hour to an hour and half. I learn't to control my sound on the grand piano so my family has stopped complaining. Trust me it can get very loud !. On weekends Saturday and Sunday it is typically about 2.5 hours each day.  I do some scales but now mostly multiple pieces in my playing range currently. My reading has gotten a bit better over the past 2 years allowing me to read some scores. The practice is now

1.  A simple piece which I can read thorough fully and if I find it interesting - go line by line carefully. Sometimes doing a line 4/5times in a row. 
( There is the Bach C minor prelude 999 and an invention that is within range )

2. Then I have an intermediate piece -typically 4-5 pages long.

3. A ridiculously difficult piece for my level ..where I may practise just 2 bars for 20 mins or so (currently a Beethoven Sonata - 2nd movement ). I have a list of 8 pieces on my piano at the moment that I can choose to play as 1,2,3.  This works for me and is not by any means a suggestion for anyone else

4. I try to hop on to TB classes as much as I can. The track on C# minor is awesome ! 

5. Upto now I was super lazy - not to try to memorize anything. But after some reflection I want to start memorizing right away. Today was a good start I tested myself if I could recall the first 5 bars of the Chopin C# minor and it was ok.. Let's see if it is retained tomorrow.. 

Peter William Thank you! I play Beethoven op.7. I have recorded it last Saturday. My best one so far. 
If you want to listen - https://youtu.be/hI0k2MuGbr0?is=aOR3-h0LNEAomcf7

Peter William That’s a good practice plan and a lot of pieces. I like it too. Have fun! 🌟

Kerstin Excellent playing!. This one I have not heard before.( My ref. is Opus 10  3- like you explained to me ). Just heard your first movement - very clear articulation and great deal of control of your sound. No breaks. Very musical. Not sure if there was a small missed note at 6:13.  I would be buying tickets to your concerts. :-) as should all those you live around you and are supportive of excellent piano playing!. Enjoy great playing! you have reached a very high level.

I will be listening to all 27 mins. carefully later in the evening! Bravo!

Peter William Thank you Peter for listening. For sure there are some wrong notes😅 

Doug What an interesting story. 
My experience to the last point is: if you have a recital you have to practice the runs through the pieces and the whole program as well. Molly Gebrian is an interesting person. I try to find out what works best for me. Happy practicing🌟

Doug  A very interesting story! (mine's not too different  - multiple careers (fields) ) and started serious time at the piano about 2.5 yrs ago.  Just like you I try to read whatever I can get a hold off ( score). Everyday practice - about an hour in the evenings.

You wrote " I rarely do scales or technique. " . Since you had lessons  your level is most likely quite high.  If you focus on just that and address it -  you may have to practice a bit lesser I think - with great results. 

Reason: most of passage work requires fast scales - a min. of 120 bpm ( 4 notes to a tick ). Until a few days ago I didn't think this was even possible for a beginner like me - I was consistently hitting speed walls at around 96 bpm.. (60,72,84,).. but that is sort of changing .. (with a small diff. in the way of practicing). Would you be interested in a short conversation ? If so ping yes else no worries. 

Peter William   RE: Scales  - If you focus on just that and address it -  you may have to practice a bit lesser I think - with great results. 

Peter, you may be right about this?  At some point, I may come back to just practising scales and technique and adding Hanon and the like.  

I do have the advantage that when I was very young (4 - 12 years old?) I did do scales and technique in a limited amount.  This was always the way to start any practice session so it was like going against the grain when these days I just decided not to do it anymore.

Again, for me, the reason is mostly based on time.  The less time I have the more I want to cram in to that available time.  Technique became optional, I guess.

As a professional amateur now ( :-)) )  I wouldn't recommend my poor habits to anyone else.  However, here is how I justified my methods.  I reasoned, generally, that I could read all the books in the world or just read the dictionary.  The dictionary has every word that every book in the world has?  Scales and technique are like just reading the dictionary.  The pieces are like reading the books which have many words (scales) built in to them.  In other words, I'm working on my technique but literally only through the pieces I play.  ;-)

OK, that's horrible logic.  Listen to your teachers and do it the best way kids.  Don't listen to the crazy man here giving bad advice and challenging all the best norms that probably work best !!

Doug I infer that you are a very high level player ("professional amateur player with lots of training in younger years " )... but can explain a bit what I learn't from 2 or 3 absolute Maestros of piano playing ( world level - repute) in the past few weeks.

You may get a lot more out of what they were saying than I can even hope to implement.

 Your para 3 and 4 with the dictionary analogy - I respectfully disagree with.. :-).. But to be clear - you have your reasons and I can see why you would say that. :-)

Doug said:
The dictionary has every word that every book in the world has?  Scales and technique are like just reading the dictionary.  The pieces are like reading the books which have many words (scales) built in to them.  In other words, I'm working on my technique but literally only through the pieces I play.

This is a common misconception about 'technique'. Scales, chords and arpeggios are not technique. Technique is the way we physically execute passagework at the piano. Good technique is execution that has economy of motion, produces the desired sound / articulation and is physically sustainable.

Scales, chords and arpeggios are figurations that we regularly encounter at the piano. If we know these figurations fluently, we can use them to refine important techniques. Many people that work on 'technique' at the piano are focusing on learning fingering accurately, coordinating the hands to play these figures together and to play them at a certain tempo. This is learning the figurations in different keys. This work is just the price of admission. Actual technique work begins when we start paying more attention to things like how the wrist moves, the manner in which we activate the fingers, how upper arm moves to support the forearm etc. Using scales, chords and arpeggios to do this work means that it will carry through all of our playing at the piano and isolating it allows us to make more deliberate improvement to our movements more quickly. Using a passage in the music we play to work on technique is not without value but it really only helps you play that one passage in that one key from that one piece better.  

So a more accurate analogy would be to view proper technique work as being like an athlete training in the gym versus playing in a competition / match.  Outsides of the sports they play, athletes do specific forms of exercise to increase their strength, endurance, reflexes, etc. An athlete trying to really reach their full potential would not say "I get the exercise I need from competing". 

There are other serious advantages to working on scales, chords and arpeggios as isolated figures as well but the above is enough to make the point that the word 'technique' has become a bit distorted in piano studies. 

Dustin Anderson This is a terrific answer! and you have the credentials to say so. :-)  But I did read the following in text .. lol!

"To be able to produce many varieties of sound, now that is what I call technique." [1]" 

and this 

“Piano playing consists of common sense, heart and technical resources. All three should be equally developed. Without common sense you are a fiasco, without technique an amateur, without heart a machine. The profession does have its hazards.”

I am sure you know who said this..  ( V Horrowitz)

Peter William   RE:  a "professional amateur"

Peter, a "professional amateur" is what is known as an oxymoron as well as a joke or humour or tongue in cheek light-hearted kidding.  

So I stand behind these self-proclaimed credentials of mine.  Today I am going to order my new business cards that state:  Der Wanderer:  Professional Amateur

;-)

Doug no worries at all. :-) . There are really very advanced players here and you are most likely one of them as well. Just check out the Mozart/Bach .. pages - some terrific pianists there. I should really not be saying anything at all..( I am certainly not one of those ) lol!

Dustin Anderson   Dustin, well said.  Of course you are wise and right about this.  I did somewhat acknowledge this by warning everyone this is not the way but it is the 'ditch' I'm currently in.  

Following my story here, right now I am like the kid who just left home after a restrictive upbringing and being exposed to the world for the first time.  I'm enjoying my freedom in other words.  At some point, I'll have to find my way home.

Would I ever recommend a beginner at any instrument to take this path?  NO! 

Will I return to the path you laid out above?  Yes..... probably?  (I'm obviously on the fence about this at the moment.)

The unstated facts I left out was that I am largely learning now on my own.  I think the most important thing you wrote about is the idea that there is more to working on technique than just plowing through and playing these exercises / patterns.  It should really make you focus on touch, tone, and how to move the body etc. among other things.  So, I would say that for this I would need a great teacher to do this correctly.

Peter William   Peter, yes, it is a little intimidating here with so many great players.  Everyone is so supportive and I admire the courage it takes to perform and put something out there.   When I practice I often think in terms of the end goal and imagine that the purpose is to share this great music.  Then, soon after I come to my senses and retreat back to my safe space (as a professional amateur ).  ;-)

Doug I agree .. That last line on "retreating.. " just don't do that. I think your playing is good to post at any time. :-) .. do you have any links to your playing.? you can DM if you like.. I will definitely listen..  :-)

Peter William   RE:  Retreating...

Peter, believe it or not I have never recorded myself.  I have been seriously considering documenting my journey in the "Your Practice Diary" as you recently have and many others.  There are days that I want to do this for the simple reason just to prove to myself that I do exist.  It takes a lot of work to learn anything and currently I really have no snapshots to look back on in the future.  So there is the motivation I have to strive for this.

My flexible commitment that I just made to myself is that maybe in about six months I'll be ready to try recording myself.   It may happen sooner but if it turns out to be traumatizing I may end up regretting it?

Doug no worries.. I was just looking for a piano study buddy if possible.. :-) and you are quite advanced.. :-) I may not even be able to read any line from what you play..