Measure 45-46 Chopin Nocturne in E minor

Hi all, I’ve been working on this piece for a few months and getting to the final stages. I have a question regarding this measure. I’ve encountered editions where the B is mot tied. My edition has it tied which seems more musically appropriate- sustaining the voice. Any thoughts on what is considered standard performance for this?

also curious if anyone has another suggested fingering for the grace note to chords and then holding the B. Thanks!

carlos

17 replies

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    • hot4euterpe
    • 11 days ago
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    That looks like the Paderewski edition. While it a respectable edition it is edited and some of those edits do not align with urtext editions. The Ekier edition (which is considered to be excellent) does not have the tie which indicates that the tie may be editorial.

    However, that does not mean you need to change anything if you like it! Paderewski was a greatly loved Polish pianist and his performances of Chopin were held in high regard. You would just be choosing to maintain a detail that a great performer felt was convincing and satisfying enough to include in their edition (though it is worth noting that by modern standards Panderewski is considered to be on the mannered side). 

    In regard to fingering, some editions suggest 43 for the grace notes, likely to help with the legato of the melody line. Either way, you have to make some compromises to get your fingers around the large chords so I would go with whichever works best for you. Holding the B as a tie makes this passage a fair bit trickier, particularly to legato. You would typically play the first chord 1235 and hold the B with 3, move 5-4 (or 5 again quickly depending on span) to the D#, and then resolve the chord to 1 (3) 5.

    Great questions!

    Edit: I checked some of my other editions once home and while the Ekier does not have the tie, Henle urtext does. None of the commentary from either edition discusses this specific discrepancy. This could mean that there are conflicting sources in which an authoritative version could not be determined. The Ekier commentary does state the following general acknowledgement:

    In the sources from which this Nocturne is familiar, additions, and possibly also changes, were undoubtedly made to the performance markings.

    You caught an interesting detail!

    • Docstargazer
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Thanks Dustin! I really appreciate the your detailed response.  This is great stuff!  I'm going to try both ways and see what my skills and smallish hands can execute lol and what sounds best to me.  I originally was thinking the held B made sense - thinking it was like a singers voice carrying over two measures.  I have not been able to distinguish what performances like Rubinstein's multiple recordings (my favorite renditions) are doing.  Thanks again for the very helpful response! Cheers!

      • hot4euterpe
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       No problem - I love these kinds of questions. I listened to the RCA recording of Rubinstein's and yes it is hard to be absolutely certain but it sounds to me like he is replaying the B.

      • Maria_F
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Yes, I believe so.

    • Maria_F
    • 11 days ago
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    I was going to add that the Bärenreiter Urtext also has the tie, but I don't know if that is helpful. 

    • Sam.15
    • 11 days ago
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    Hi Carlos, great choice learning the piece. I just finished learning it. In my version the B does not have a tie for what it's worth. I think either way it's played sounds fine. Like you said it's hard to tell on the recordings what the artist is doing.

    As for the grace notes, I play it using my 5 for the F and E. I slide my 5 down from the F to use the 5 on the E which makes the chord easier to play. 

    Hope that helps.

    Sam

    • Docstargazer
    • 10 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Thanks everyone! great info!   I really love this piece- it's one of those that moves me no matter how many times I've heard it.  I'm still ironing out some of the kinks in the rapid runs and especially that last one after the long trill but it's getting close.  Thanks for the fingering suggestion- will give it a try.

    • Docstargazer
    • 4 days ago
    • Reported - view

    not sure this got posted, I've been trying to listen carefully and I think Rubinstein plays the Paderewski version and Ohlsson plays the Henle version. I've not encountered any recordings playing the upper A as noted in Ekier.  I think I am going to settle on the Paderewski version.

      • Maria_F
      • 3 days ago
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       I believe that is correct.

      I couldn't really tell, but it sounded to me like Jan Lisiecki also held the B. 

    • Docstargazer
    • 3 days ago
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    Just curious did my previous post showing another area of the piece where three editions show different notes show up. On my screen it says pending review despite my posting it a week ago. Thanks!

      • Maria_F
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       No, it did not show up.

      Usually, "pending review" means oneinadvertently used a word or a phrase that the algorithms flagged as a potential violation of community rules. It can be annoying when someone tries to mention F. Hensel/Felix Mendelssohn's sister, because the algorithm consistently flags her first name. 

      • Docstargazer
      • 3 days ago
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      oh interesting. Ok that might explain it. I’ll try to repost. 

      • Docstargazer
      • 3 days ago
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      ok here goes again. I found the three editions all disagree on the left hand accompaniment during the B octaves. See my attached picture. Thoughts?

      • hot4euterpe
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I tend to default to Ekier. In this case it is also the one I think has the richest sound as it has the D# to E in the bass and outlines the dominant 7th. It really comes down to which you like but that would be my personal choice from looking at your side by sides.

      • Docstargazer
      • 2 days ago
      • Reported - view

       thanks Dustin!  Yes I agree, I prefer the D# (Ekier and Padew) over the B of the Henle. Still haven’t decided if I like the A (Ekier) or B (Paderw) as the upper note of the triplet. Leaning towards Ekier suggestion of A which adds that chromatic tension with the B octaves in the right hand. Ya think I have a touch of ocd? Ha ha!

      • hot4euterpe
      • 2 days ago
      • Reported - view

       =) Not OCD at all! Just thoughtful about the sounds you like. The A is the 7th of the dominant 7th chord so it absolutely increases the tension just like you said. It resolves to the G in the following E minor chord. The B is not a tendency tone like the A is, so it does not 'pull' the ear as strongly. In other words, your musical instincts align well with principles of harmony!

    • Docstargazer
    • 2 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Thanks!😊 

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