Help with ornamentation timing for Minuet in G major

Hi,

I'm new around here (and a beginner pianist), hope this is the right place for questions.

I'm learning to play Minuet in G major,  BWV Anh. 114 from the course "Intro to J. S.

Bach’s Keyboard Music" by Magdalena Stern Baczewska and am a little confused  about how the ornamentations should be played, especially on bars 3 and 11.

 

Seems like they can either be added on the beat like Magdalena does in the course (link to lesson) or preceding the beat, see Lang Lang here

 

Any thoughts on that?

7 replies

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    • Pianist, composer and piano teacher
    • Sindre_Skarelven
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Good question! The general rule is to play them on the beat, so that would be most in line with the baroque practice. In the end it's a matter of taste, and these rules can be broken. But the correct practice is on the beat. 

      • Royhj
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Sindre Skarelven interesting, thank you for the answer, I didn't know this was baroque practice, how do we know this today?

      But this raises another question though. Played on the beat, again, I find two flavors... Magdalena squeezes the rest of the phrase (of 4 8th notes) into the remaining time, playing a sequence of notes faster (like in bar 3 in the lessons I linked above). But I could also align the note following the one with the ornament to the "in-time" 8th...

      Aligning the following note to the 8th feels easier to me, though I have a feeling that Magdalena would probably advise thinking of the entire phrase (of 8ths) as a single long ornamentation to fit into a half note.

      • Pianist, composer and piano teacher
      • Sindre_Skarelven
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Roy There are documents that explain how these where performed. J.S. Bach has a diagram of different types of ornaments that explain how they are properly performed. Again, rules can be broken, and the context is important! 

      The mordent witch is the ornament in question,  takes time from the note it’s placed above, so that note becomes shorter. I listened to Magdalena’s playing, and you are right, she plays the subsequent notes as triplets, actually prolonging the note value with the mordent! Very interesting. That allows for a slower mordent, but changes the rhythm.  The more traditional way would be to play the note with the mordent as two 32notes and one 16note. Obviously there are some freedom here. 
       

      • Royhj
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Sindre Skarelven thanks again, good to know the common practice. Interesting that a player like Lang Lang chose to play differently (and apparently, Magdalena as well, more subtly).
      I think that Magdalena's approach is the most challenging; in a way, she just fits everything into the half note... this gives a lot of freedom. I will try out different ways... now, if only I could make those fingers do what I want them to :)

      • Pianist, composer and piano teacher
      • Sindre_Skarelven
      • 3 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Roy Great! Good luck! 

    • Classical Pianist and Music Theorist
    • dr_AntonellaDiGiulio
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    I would not play the ornaments as Lang Lang does. I think it is a less "historically informed" performance. Magdalena plays them beautifully and correctly. :) I hope that helps.

    • Royhj
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Yes, this discussion helped a lot. Thank you.

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