What is your favorite piano brand?

Albert I am not very experienced with different brands, but I adore the Bösendorfer sound, especially the bass! I tried one for fun and even though I don‘t have the skills to make the most of it it was a very beautiful experience.

If one day, space, money and skills are not the issue, those would be in the top three.

Albert I agree completely. Their treble is powerful and mellow at the same time. The factory near Vienna could trace the 2 technicians who built mine.. There are only 2 people who are assigned on a piano in their factory. All hand done. Even the curves of the piano is made of the same spruce as the sound bound. So it is a sound box on the grand.  I don’t deserve it. 

Albert What do you think were the best years of Bosendorfer in terms of intimate musicality,  a long, velvet sustain, a sweet and bell-like treble, and not overly brilliant?  I am considering a 225 from 1984 currently being restored by a highly regarded rebuilder and am assured the action can be adjusted to my preference. I seek your opinion since I would need to pay a deposit and, as an honorable person, stop considering other options.  Of course, the deposit would be fully refundable, but I might want to consider a C. Bechstein, say

Albert I played a Bosendorfer once and could not get over the magnificent response.   It felt like an extension to my mind.    I sadly could not afford it and bought a beautiful, slightly smaller Schimmel which I also love.     My hands already quite small, and now also an injured right hand, make it very hard to play any conventional sized instrument, so I have an Athena for small hands.    Such a huge difference in playability but also such a sad loss of the sound I'm used to.    Have tried attaching it to the Roland I've got which is better,including a pair of good speakers.    However my wish would be to get the small keyboard replacement for my Schimmel.     Dreams.

Albert I am just now connecting all the dots and just realized I recently discovered you from Key-Notes.  Earlier this year I was on the hunt for a good room humidifier for my piano room and you, hands down, have the only and the best explanation that answered many of the questions I had.  I ended up buying a Venta Professional AW902 and am extremely happy with it.

In regards to Bösendorfer, I wish I could ask you many, many questions but I'll restrain myself by just asking a few general questions about your room mostly.  I believe you have the Concert Grand 290 Imperial?  I just wonder if you could help guide me by commenting on the following questions as it will help me think about my own situation and choices.

1). What is the approximate length x width x height of the room you are in?

2) I noticed you have some sort of room treatment to absorb the reflections plus I would assume you have the hammers voiced down as to lower any overpowering harshness?  Does this help to any degree to the point where the piano sounds like it should in a small room (similar to the ideal characteristics of how this piano might sound in a larger hall?). Your recordings all sound remarkable and very pleasing to me.  My dream would come true if I could manage to get something remotely similar..

3) In a home, usually there is less choice in where to put a piano like this but I notice yours is right next to the wall.  Does it make any difference if it is next to the wall as opposed to say more in the middle of the room giving more openness to the left side too (as it usually is in a hall)?

4) I currently own a NY Steinway B.  My room is quite small but maybe typical (~15' x 20' with a rising ceiling from 8' to 14').  I have recently become interested in Bösendorfer, C. Bechstein, and Fazioli.  There is no dealers of these pianos where I live and the closest is 3 hours away.  Last week I got a chance to play a Bösendorfer for the first time in my life and I think I may have found my new love!  I didn't immediately like it until my ear started to adjust to this new sound. 

My question is that in your experience how consistent are Bösendorfers generally?  Since I can only play on this one ( a 225) and I question myself whether it is an average piano, below average, or above average next to any other Bösendorfer.  For instance, if I went to the factory, I could play multiple instruments and pick my favorite.  I'm hoping that with a premium instrument like Bösendorfer that they might be more consistent from one piano to next.  I'm mainly thinking of the touch (action) and tonal quality?  I suppose a good piano technician can make the voicing brighter or darker?

In my mind, my dream Bösendorfers would be presumably from the group of either 214VC, 230VC, 280VC, 225, or 290 Imperial.  The reality of owning the largest models at this point is a ways off for me but given that you are doing this now in a home gives me some hope and confidence that it can be done.  My goal is to find a piano which has a combination of a beautiful, rich, warm, slightly dark, bell like tone.  I abhor pianos that are harsh, percussive, or overly bright.  Could I be happy with any Bösendorfer model I listed here?

I appreciate any wisdom or guidance you offer here.

Thanks again,

Doug

Doug Weiss If I may presume to hop in and share my recent experience with a very similar scenario: I just swapped my Hamburg B for a new Bösendorfer 280-VC for residential use, in a room with standard ceiling hight, 13”4” x 17’4” in size. But the room has a large opening on the wall towards which the piano speaks, so that reverberation is reduced. I was very concerned about getting a concert instrument of that size for home use. But all worked out very well. I play with the lid open routinely. The piano is so incredibly sensitive and easily controlled that it is not a struggle to play it in a lower dynamic range.

I compared the 280-VC to the 230-VC and 225, and I found that the 280-VC had much greater sensitivity to touch, a broader range of dynamics and tonal character that was obligingly controllable. My goal was to get an instrument that would invite me to develop technically and enlarge my understanding of interpretation and expression. I don’t think you could do better than choose a large concert instrument if you share those goals. I liked my Steinway B, but in retrospect it was quite limiting.

That said, I would have also been happy to switch to a 225. If you look, you will find that many are available on the used market in the US (if that is where you are). 

As a side note, the 280-VC that I obtained was built 1-2 years ago, after the model was redesigned with a thicker rim containing more hardwood, intended to project better for use in a large concert setting. With louder playing, each note develops higher overtones a nanosecond after hearing the fundamental, creating a ringing quality. One of the original models (2019) with a thinner rim did not do that; it also had a more reedy sound in the tenor, and spilled more energy through the rim and case so that the vibrations can be felt from the keys.

And, BTW, I too got a Venta professional and find it superbly convenient and reliable in controlling humidity for the piano room—much more than the smaller models (but at an even more stupid expensive price). 

Michael Thank you so much for your reply on this!  Your first hand experience gives me some reassurance that I'm not going crazy and exactly what I was seeking to find out.  

I will say that when I read the piano brochure descriptions of most manufacturers today that they almost always make reference to the sheer power of this instrument to project to the back of the hall or even the smaller grands like a 185VC they say "it has impressive volume for its size etc."  The problem is that this is marketing speak for those in the industry who think their clientele are symphony orchestras in large halls.  I'm seeking beautiful tone (aural quality) and an ideal touch (tactility) for my own pleasure in my own home everyday as I spend time with music (as I think the majority of us players are).  I don't need a "powerful" instrument, I want something capable of nuance and beauty.

I'm not opposed to a piano having the potential for power but only if I'm also able to play pianissimo in a reliably controlled way.  To do this, I personally need to have some sense of weightiness to the key touch.  When a piano is bright and has a light touch already when you play forte this to me is problematic because it is like walking on eggshells.  In other words, I'd like to have equal levels of controllability from fortissimo to pianissimo to allow for unlimited amount of shading and variability.  It sounds like your 280VC delivers just that and that is wonderful to know.  

Speaking of key touch / weight I wonder how much of this perceived effect is in the mind?  For instance, with my current piano, it seems to me to have a very light touch but is that related to our ears being overwhelmed by the easily achieved volume in a smaller room?  If I took this same piano to a large hall I believe that the keys would seem to be heavier to press because the same touch we were used to now doesn't overwhelm our ear so we think we have to play louder to get the same effect?  It's hard for me to describe but this has been my experience.

I'm sure I could find something used but my ultimate goal one day would be to go the factory and select my final dream piano(s). <-- ;-)).  Working with a dealer means I can buy a piano now and they will give me what I paid for it within 10 years if I seek to trade-up.  Yes, the sell price for a new piano will keep inflating but I feel more comfortable doing it this way than eventually trying to sell a piano in the future and having to take maybe more loss in order to sell it.

Did you buy your 280VC new, through a dealer, or privately or did you select it from the factory?

Lastly, I went with the Professional model of Venta because I believe it is easier to clean/service/maintain.  Also, I believe the square footage recommended sizing of the smaller models is overstated and very optimistic.  When I understood that my piano room has openings to the other half of my home I then based my calculations on a larger area.  Yes, the cost was quite a bit more but actually the cost of the humidifier is relatively nothing over the long run.  The real cost is in the supplies to keep it running.  It is too new for me now to confirm but I am thinking that it costs about $50-$60 per month in water treatment and cleaning supplies.

Thanks again Michael for your help and insights in this.

Doug

Doug Weiss Thanks for continuing this interesting discussion! 

I’ve encountered discussions about alterations in the perceived touch on the piano brought about by differences in acoustic feedback, and I suspect that phenomenon has been discussed in published literature and perhaps been evaluated methodically.

The action of my Steinway B was optimized through extensive regulation, and on first blush it seemed superbly playable. Nonetheless, I found it a struggle to play quietly while maintaining certainty that a given note would sound at all. I turned summersaults of inventive technical machinations to control the dynamics reliably, and to work with a broad dynamic range in every phrase. My goal in getting the concert grand was to gain access to a broader dynamic range (including a reliable ppp) without needing to work so hard at it technically. Indeed, with the new piano, the broader dynamic range is effortlessly accessible. Now I am able to put my energies into the more rewarding process of working with the increased touch sensitivity and availability of more nuanced musical expression. It’s just easier to play, and the possibilities have become limitless.

I bought my 280VC new from a dealer, trading in my B as part of the deal. For the preceding year I carefully followed the used piano market in the USA, and no fewer than 3 280VCs under 5 years old become available on the east coast alone, as well as several other Bösendorfers throughout country. The obstacles to purchasing used instruments were many. They were generally in private homes, sometimes in out-of-the-way places, and it seemed unlikely that I would be able to evaluate them as carefully, for as long or as many times as I would like. It was difficult to be confident that their histories, amount of use/abuse, stability of climate control, and degree of wear could be accurately assessed. There are no warranties or concerns for reputation in that setting. Nonetheless, with your own professional technician’s appraisal and your own attentive evaluation you could probably be happy and save a lot of money.  If one is in the financial position to make it feasible, another advantage to buying new from the dealer is getting your current instrument out of your house as part of a swap, on a reliable time frame, known price, and without the need to accommodate unknown buyers in your home. You are assured of technical support, a substantial warranty, and often trade-in options in the future should your needs change.

I considered buying from the Bösendorfer factory or Vienna flagship store in person, but that didn’t solve the problem of unloading my current instrument, and I’m unclear whether the factory sells at higher prices closer to the inflated MSRP than the more remote dealerships do. I’m also making the assumption that room acoustics, voicing, tuning, regulation, wear, and shifting subjective preferences outweigh the differences between pianos of the same design and model at the factory showroom—but can’t really be sure of that. I do know that for Steinway D’s, notoriously variable as they come off the factory line, the best are separated out for concert use and never make it to the general retail market. The Bösendorfers are by reputation more consistent (and I believe it), and I speculate that they vary less in sound and touch.

Let me know what you end up doing!

And more trivially, yes, the Venta professional model with its chemical disk and UV bulb replacements will probably torment us with high ongoing costs. I’ve had 3 LH44’s before (two still in service) and I agree, they don’t provide nearly as much coverage as advertised. I refill mine every other day (despite having whole house humidification), and the removable tank in the professional model sure beats hauling buckets of water around the house. I’m not convinced that the Dampp Chaser on my prior piano did anything useful; certainly couldn’t demonstrate it persuasively with a bluetooth hygrometer stuck in the piano.

Kevin Kang I've read about the Bechstein and all the technology from a luxury piano site. Hard to find a place to go in and play one unless you are in New York City or Miami.