Learning Bach's Invention in C Major

This page is for Tonebase Players ( Levels 2,3,4,5) who are learning to play this beautiful piece by J S Bach. The discussion here is solely on this piece. If you are interested in discussing your strategies and practice methods please feel free to share as you deem fit. All ideas are welcome.

 

Higher level players -there are many many here on Tonebase -  who are fluent in this piece are extremely welcome to provide advice. 

I will start (my level - 2/3 maybe ? ). Heard the piece played by several renowned artists.  Read the piece a few times after that on day 1 then proceeded to do the same for a few more days - what I call the really coarse method.  Recorded the really coarse version as a checkpoint to see if the strategy is working - record again in 4 days and see if anything has changed.  After deciding this piece is perhaps playable in a few weeks/months I have adopted  a strategy and describe my  process. 

1. 1st line RH only ( actually split into 1 measure first then string the rest to a line) -use a metronome at 60 bpm to the quarter note. Play and memorize right away. Close the line and see if there is recall. 

2. Same as 1 but for LH. 

The final tempo is 120 bpm to the quarter note( it is really fast for my level - so  dropped to half speed) 

 

3. Proceed to line 2 in the score only after line 1 is reasonably accurate. Skip ornamentation in the begining.

 

4. Then play both hands together accurately - just the first line. This is quite tough in the beginning. For the first few hours nothing seemed to work.  When I hear the recording I can tell right away that something is off.
 

So far in about a week of practicing this piece everday there is a bit of progress. Quite noticeably from the recording. Need to baseline it in the next couple of days.

If there is interest in this topic I am happy to share anything I read about or come across that may be useful to anyone else learning this piece.  Feel free to post anything that you may think may be useful to others in their learning journey. If there is no interest in this topic I am happy to delete this page promptly. :-)

114 replies

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    • Peter_William
    • 1 mth ago
    • Reported - view

     Apologies for digressing into literature ( should be on another platform. This is not the right place :-) ) but getting back to the musical matter at hand.

    I got a chance to be at the piano practicing a few hours yesterday and this morning and wanted to ask you if there would be any value on posting

    - just the second page - hands together (slow tempo).

    I thought it would take several weeks but something has changed .. with the "1/2 bar.. " method but wanted to see if you would take a look at the video. Yes/no answer is fine..

    Thanks as always for taking a look at the video and suggestions.!

      • Der Wanderer
      • FRANZ_SCHUBERT
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Just a reminder that our work is never done and was wondering if you were aware of the alternate version of this C-major Invention, BWV 772?  It is harder somewhat as it adds triplets to the ends of the motif.  It is BWV 772a and once one has the original nailed down it wouldn't be much of a leap to learn this variant.

      • Peter_William
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Thanks for joining the thread and offering your insights!

      I know you are way over level 6 at TB so was surprised you took an interest  :-)

      Thank you again!..  After this experiment I will be going back to silent practice for a few months on this piece and a few others that are well within reach of playing start to finish.  This will be ongoing for a few years at least. 

      Will be reading some threads off and on.. All the best with your journey as well

      • Peter_William
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Yes was aware of the alternate version but choose this one as it was simpler for my level ( Alfred's 2 or 3 maybe ?). Just happy that I can play it end to end now after a few weeks - will continue with it along with other pieces. 

      I got your file and was able to extract it and hear the music.

      Your slow tempo version sounded very clear and musical to me. It sounded like a 2 voice conversation. Perhaps you can share it here as well.

      If you have software issues let me know I can help you upload to YT in a few minutes and the link can be shared. Thank you!

      • Der Wanderer
      • FRANZ_SCHUBERT
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Thank you.  I hope you continue to update us all and share your progress and questions.  I hope my initial intent was solely to join in on the conversation and offer suggestions but as it turned out you actually helped me more than you know in return.

      I started a new Bach piece!  This got me out of my paralyzed state and finally motivated me enough to move into action.  Second, I would never, after 45 minutes into learning a new piece, share it with anyone.  I don't feel worthy enough to do this and I have so much to learn as well.  Thirdly, I have never recorded myself and so this was a whole process.  I spent more time on this aspect than actually at the piano but it was worth it. 

      Were it not for these events occurring quickly (not giving me time to look for a way out) I tricked myself into actually doing the things I need to do and that procrastination was conquering or controlling me with. 

      On the recording aspect, I am truly humbled.  This is brutal actually.  Do I sound that bad?  Everything, and I mean everything, is magnified 100 times over and sticks out so clearly as to be intimidating and deflating.  Again, I had to find out and experience this and it only means I have to adjust my low self-esteem to be even lower and keep trying to locate that proverbial bottom rung.

       

       said:
      Your slow tempo version sounded very clear and musical to me. It sounded like a 2 voice conversation. 

      Thank you Peter.  This is very kind of you to say this.  It is funny that you said "Your slow tempo..."   Several hours after I sent that to you I listened to it again and believe it or not I thought to myself - oh, this tempo is probably a little rushed. I'm going to have to do this over again and slow it down a tad.  

      Everything I did to conceptualize this piece and analyze it, within a day, is truly organic.  I knew nothing of the piece beforehand, I never played it before, I read nothing of what anyone else has said about it, and I listened to no recordings (it has been many years since I did listen to these pieces here or there).

      The only words I hold dearly and my motivations are from Bach in the preface to these works.  He said:

       

      Forthright instruction, wherewith lovers of the clavier, especially those desirous of learning, are shown in a clear way not only 1) to learn to play two voices clearly, but also after further progress 2) to deal correctly and well with three obbligato parts, moreover at the same time to obtain not only good ideas, but also to carry them out well, but most of all to achieve a cantabile style of playing, and thereby to acquire a strong foretaste of composition.

       

      Unfortunately, I am in the minority here but if I were to put it into words, how you think of a piece (your interpretation and ideas) are directly linked to your chosen tempo, first and foremost.  To play faster (or slower) I have to adjust my attitude and thinking.  A conversation at two vastly different tempos can still be a conversation but it is definitely not the same conversation (in my humble opinion).

      Again, sorry if I get overly zealous when I talk or think about music and the things I love.

      • Peter_William
      • 3 days ago
      • Reported - view

       You have fantastic insights ! It amazes me to even understand that you could read the piece in one morning and play so clearly! - both hands are heard quite distinctly!  ( In contrast I have been playing this piece for almost 2.5 months now ! lol! )

      The recording was clear not garbled at all. Maybe a small technical issue on your computer. It was recorded in Apples' format so I had to find  a player for it but that is very easy. My suggestion is not to spend any time in recording details - as it can be very time consuming.

      Just focus on the playing and send it over. The playing comes through very well !. To be clear as to what I am saying if I studio managed my recording for 6 more hours it won't still sound that clear lol! since the playing itself is not that clear but it is still work in progress. I hope you are laughing at my plight by this time. lol! 

      As far as the tempo is concerned all I was referring to was that it was considerably slower than ( off course intentionally so!) than let's say the tutorial piece by Magdalena Stern ( at least this is what I feel but I could be wrong). Best to post it here and other seasoned experts will have much more profound thoughts.  Your musical ideas elucidated above are very good to learn from. Thank you!

      • Peter_William
      • 2 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I hope you continue with this piece consistently for a while. What you have achieved is done with just 1 morning's play - all of it should be so easy! for you.  Some ideas to consider (if you like) at your own time.. 

      1.  Maybe play the whole piece at the same tempo - there is a lot of clarity and musicality! in your playing, I say this - from the snippet you sent me.

      So the whole piece would be great to hear. Then post the link ( If you send me the recording .. I can do the software mechanics of getting your playing into YT in just a few minutes.. :-) . That part is easy for me. lol. )

      2. Then it would be wonderful to possibly hear it, at slightly faster tempo as well (whatever you deem fit for musicality) 

      1 &2 will be super beneficial to beginner level players like me - who can see the art of the possible.

      Thanks for taking such a deep interest in this piece.  If I have inspired you to start a rather ardous journey of posting one's work  - then I stand apologetic, but after the initial hesitation, you will find a lot of like -minded advanced pianists here to share ideas with on your playing as well. 

      • Der Wanderer
      • FRANZ_SCHUBERT
      • Yesterday
      • Reported - view

       I certainly will continue but do not expect much from me.  I have a lot to learn now and am somewhat intimidated by the expectations of Bach and also from the many Bach aficionados I enjoy listening to on TB here.  Thank you again for somewhat being responsible for pushing me out into the deep end.  I think ?  ;-)

      I will come to you eventually for technical help on the recording side as well at some point but for now I am content to just work at learning this music.  At the moment, I have mixed feelings about the recording process and how much effort I can afford to put into it.

      • Peter_William
      • Yesterday
      • Reported - view

       Yes there are many experts here at TB and they play beautifully and musically. !

      You might want to check out the Bach Stage Page - some wonderful playing is posted there.  If you do not know about the page let me know I can post the link here.  

      Actually here is the link

      https://piano-community.tonebase.co/t/q6yykqa/tonebase-bach-stage

       

      This page is a practice page where I post my (beginner level) playing and other experts have been commenting on the playing ( such as yourself! :-) ) .

      You can start your own page and I am sure there will be lots of interest in your musically and historically informed playing!

      The last point that may be useful to you is the tutorial on this piece by Prof. Magdalena Stern ( please be aware - she is a world renowned concert pianist :-) ) 

       

      https://app.tonebase.co/piano/courses/player/magdalena-stern-baczewska-intro-to-bachs-keyboard-music-pt?moduleSlug=magdalena-stern-baczewska-teaches-intro-to-bach-4-invention-in-c-major-bwv-772

       

      There is also the resident pianist/teacher here Dustin - who can play this piece in a heartbeat ( I think !  :-) ) - who has a very advanced perspective on music - so your playing may get some good feedback as well..

      All the best  

    • Dominic_Cheli
    • 2 wk ago
    • Reported - view

    Hello everyone!

    Figured I’d share a little early information in this thread! My tonebase Guided Track on Bach’s Invention No. 1 will be released in two weeks. Excited to share it with everyone!

      • Peter_William
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

       ah yes!.. I have been practicing this very piece from Prof. Magdalena Stern's lesson for the past 6-8 weeks. Looking forward to the tracks to make life a bit easier lol!. Did all my homework with slow practice etc.. so the tracks should help a lot.. Thank you!

      • Akzent oder Diminuendo?
      • Maria_F
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

       You should do tracks about some of the Sinfonias! 

      • Peter_William
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Then the concertos as well . I listen a lot to Beatrice Rana’s fantastic YT on the concertos 😀

      • Andrew_Smith
      • 12 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Thank you Dominic, that's great to hear!

    • Peter_William
    • 7 hrs ago
    • Reported - view

    All who are reading this page.

    Maestro Dominic has just released a fantastic ! tutorial on this very piece. I just watched the first section completely a few minutes ago and the level of precision in explaining exactly how to practice is absolutely astounding!.

    Please note I have been playing this piece almost every day  now for about 2 and half months (45 mins to an hour) and I think it would have saved me at least 1 and half months !  But beter late than never to learn a piece properly!.

    0. There is a C maj scale practice with the metronome setting to start getting the basics right away along with the arpeggio. 

    1.  There is a full fingering guide - I did this at the start of mine and there are several places my fingering was plain wrong ! :-) and I had breaks on the first page in 2 bars - so with the tutorial it should be resolved soon  :-)

    2. There are explanations of how to play the mordents right away!. along  with the dynamics ! . So this will be a big change for me.

    3. The opening line itself is explained beautifully in what type of articulation to use in bringing out the 2 voices clearly.

    This is just section 1 so far.

    Needless to say! I will be watching and playing along with this tutorial and hopefully learn this piece properly.

    The way this tutorial is constructed - any beginner with a little bit of score reading (such as myself ) will be able to play this piece reasonably for sure in a month or two with every day practice.

    Thank you !  

    https://app.tonebase.co/piano/tracks/johann-sebastian-bach-invention-no1-in-c-major-bwv-772

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