Learning Bach's Invention in C Major

Andrew Smith Hey Andrew! Great to read your response just a while ago. I have seen you play - so know you are very advanced. I have some beginner challenges which I will share here on what is happening.

I had never played this piece or learned it. So this was  a great test. After the first ghastly coarse reading which I posted - to get rid of shame :-)

I decided to start a slightly more methodical approach for myself- like what  a teacher would tell me. 

1. First prioritize memorizing - right away. Because this piece is rather daunting with the voices alternating between right hand and left hand and then both voices together midway through the piece.

Adopting a conversational style with my imaginary teacher and me being the student

2.  Teacher : " can you just try the right hand first - one line "? 

    me( Student):  oh let me try .. sorry .. it is not ok 

    Teacher: " ok let's break it down to first 2 bars alone" 

     me: ok I slowed to 1/3 rd time with the metronome and it is sounding ok

Teacher : "ok now proceed at that tempo and learn next bars.. then do the left hand - same way separately. Then and only then try to put it together 2 bars at a time"

me: "Thanks teacher that was immensely helpful "

Then I proceeded to do that every day for the past 15 days and have made a little headway. The memorization is not working past 2 lines so far. But there is progress. 

Thank you for responding. Do you think there will be any value in posting a video of what is working so far ? If you say so - I will post it here

Thanks a ton!

Andrew Smith Hi Andrew -- Thanks for your notes. I hope it was funny to read the exchange between my imaginary teacher and student ( myself) - even thought of spicing it up a bit for theatrics ! but decided against it -since attempts at humor are often lost so easily.

Yes I will post my rather feeble efforts over the weekend in a very short video and request your feedback. This morning whilst driving back I realized a rather fundamental mistake I was doing in reading polyphony - unfortunately it has persisted for a long time but hopefully I should get it corrected in a few days.

Also found a set of 15 inventions of Bach with the score that seem delightful to try to play - they look about the same level of effort as this one. I am being completely stubborn deliberately and insisting on playing from memory as much as possible. I think I have most of the first page now over the past 10 days.. not sure if this process is linear - which means that that whole piece should be ok by -09/28/ .. There I have already jinxed it by talking about it.. oops..lol!

Andrew Smith Not yet. But I have been practicing it every day slowly for better clarity. Nearly getting to the first page memorized. I realized that here on TB everyone seems to post only highest quality work and I am guilty of posting fast sloppy work - which no one wants to see. :-). If I get a decent cut with slow practice this evening - will post it - maybe hands separate but clear. Thank you again!

Andrew Smith 

so here is a version after a few days of trying to learn this piece. Slow tempo 

RH only -09/08/26

https://youtu.be/WXg5jPU-moM

LH only

https://youtu.be/n1s3y94WY6w

Andrew Smith Great feedback Andrew. Thanks a lot.

On point 1) I don't feel any tension at all at the moment. The up down wrist action and circles help

2. Exactly right I had intended to just do 1 page but continued on.. :-). Also it is not yet memorized properly. Now I have some lines memorized so don't have to look at the score for those lines. But wanted to post at least something before a long lapse of several weeks.

3. Exactly correct there are mistakes and I know exactly where they are. My actual practice is usually just 2 bars at  a time and this is working quite well - without a huge investment in time.

4. Yes I start with recordings of great masters always :-).  David Chang posted a superb short video on this entire piece.I had it on infinite playback in my car but adjusted the tempo.

But here on TB we have a lesson - I should have mentioned it in the very first posting. The lesson is by Prof. Magdalena B Stern. It is a superb lesson. This is really all one would need to learn this piece throughly.

I watched that lesson about 4 times already and once my note memorization and rhythms are correct at very slow tempo I need to go back to that lesson another 10 times at least to see the explanations on the recurrent motifs, augmentation and inversion and modulation that is taking place in this rather simple looking piece. 

You may have already seen the lesson and played it with great accuracy considering this piece is well below your level. :-).

Overall  I am not too worried about this piece and in a few weeks/months will probably end up playing the whole thing from memory accurately ( less than 3 mistakes) at slow tempo.. The real tempo is at 120 to the quarter but right now I am keeping my tempo at around 60 to the quarter. After some thought I might decide to drop it down to 40 to the quarter to get the accuracy exactly correct.

The LH video is available -it is just 2 mins long. If you have some thoughts they are welcome. There are mistakes on the notes but I have a weaker left hand so need to work on that a little more. Then sigh! hands together where the tempo will have to be dropped to around 30 to get any semblance of accuracy :-)

Ah yes your last point about getting a teacher is quite an unsolved problem for me so I keep soldering on with my own thoughts and experiments. :-) 

Andrew Smith Hey Andrew ! Great comments again.

on 1.) I am still learning  "what is arm weight?" This is a very big concept. In fact I have seen so many tutorials on it especially from the Russian school of Piano playing ( they have mastered it from over a 150 years - only from my reading of some books ). In principle it is the idea that the whole arm can function as a big lever ( physics idea) and the "finger strength" is less emphasized. This clearly means one has to learn how to move the arm efficiently either leading from the elbow or up  down movement of the really big muscle "the shoulder" arriving at extremely sophisticated touch with the keys and producing a nearly continous spectrum of sound by varying the speed of attack. Whilst all this is being stated the great masters are producing tone in an extra ordinarily beautiful way.. I suppose you are talking about this very concept that you may have already learn't very well. 

Just in time - I had ordered Leon Conus book. ( I don't want to write here what every one here probably knows. In short Conus was a colleague of Rach and a very great teacher in Cincinatti in the US).  The book arrived and has lots of cool explanations but it does talk about arm weight and the path the wrist has to move in conjunction with the elbow.  There are some parts that look super scary to me ( extensions - which I will completely avoid - unless I have a "guru" teacher who insists that I should do those exercises. :-) ). I feel that extension excercises will lead to injury. The Pianist and composer Schuman ruined his hands completely by stretching his fingers with mechanical devices !. 

Not sure if you have used any such method to acquire your techniques. I think you play some Rach.. which means you may have seen a ton of these kind of things. :-)

2. Oh there are wonderful hidden nuggets at TB - they are guarded carefully like gold in Fort Knox. LOL!.. I came across the class - it was covered by the great Prof. Stern in a series. If you haven't found the class yet,  let me know I will post the link here. You will get a lot more out of it than I could derive due to my rather paltry skill level.  Yes I am quite determined to try to play the whole thing from memory with slow and very slow tempo at the moment.

3 Regarding the tempo. Yes I usually use the approx. matching method - My own terminology lol!.  This is how it goes. Get 2/3 recordings - usually Richter, Schiff, Barenboim, Perahia, then cut the tempo in half on the recording and then bring the metronome to match - at half tempo - my paltry skill level is usually able to match the tempo and hear the beat exactly or near exactly. I think this is how I thought it was at 120 bpm but I can check it again this evening.  My tempo is currently at half tempo ( 60 bpm) for hands separate. Once hands together starts, it may drop to 40 bpm, but I won't post such a laboured exercise. My advanced colleagues here would absolutely think that my manners had gone awry and were drawn straight from the nearby forest. LOL.! 

Andrew Smith Hi Andrew. Always delightful to find another soul who is totally hooked on piano playing !  :-). I wonder why I hesitated to buy a grand piano at home for so many years! (nearly 20 years! )  but now  play almost everyday.  At first my wife complained that the sound was too loud, so I figured if I don't learn quickly how to control the sound and be able to practice late evenings, the piano may have to be sold. That was a great incentive to research technique and it is working quite well. She has been reading in the adjoining room and no complaints for several months. :-). But no compliments either .. not too bad.. the playing needs to get musical. lol!

Which is where I stumbled on the arm weight concept and quickly read a series of books ( mentioned before ). 

on para 1. Yes we should do a zoom session. I can share my list - I have about 50 wonderful channels - absolutely superb pianists/teachers/profs you name it. Josh and Denis for sure and I always check if they have something on a topic. Most recently I am finding a lot of wonderful info and practice ideas from the Piano Prof. (Kate Boyd) (Indiana based Prof. - NE Conservatory trained) - Heart of the Keys ( young lady - is now doing a lot of Chopin Concerts ) ( really good technique) and 20 other channels -

I do not know any of these illustrious people and have no possibility of knowing them. :-) 

But here on TB there are quite a lot of wizards! teachers !! . Ridiculously good! . ). I am almost convinced that if you go looking you can find whatever you need - on any type of technique. :-).  Just this morning I came across a boot camp - by a guest pianist - had never seen it before. At first after looking at the classes it appeared to be targetted only at quite advanced pianists such as yourself. But now even for my level I am finding enough to keep such a long play list that there isn't  enough time !. 

Now coming back to the invention here is the link to the Prof.'s class on the Invention. It is very very good!

https://app.tonebase.co/piano/courses/player/magdalena-stern-baczewska-intro-to-bachs-keyboard-music-pt?moduleSlug=magdalena-stern-baczewska-teaches-intro-to-bach-4-invention-in-c-major-bwv-772

The scales bootcamp by Guest prof Piotr Kozlowski - is an absolute must if you are focussing on scales, arpeggios, chords. Just saw it this morning. Enjoy!

On para 2.. I started hands together yesterday with memorization.  I think the first 2 lines are ok. Then I have a block on the 3rd and the rest of the first page is ok. So many nice patterns to notice so if you recall a phrase - it just repeats a bit later on a different note. :-). 

Not sure when this will become fluent but I plan to post the first page when it is clean - both hands - mistakes are less than 3, articulations are correct and tempo at 60bpm to the quarter. Hopefully 3 weeks from now. :-).  The second page will be easier to memorize and may not take as long as the first page. 

If you are playing it the piano bosses have the tempo set at 120bpm to the quarter - quite fast! :-)

Andrew Smith 

Hey Andrew. Thanks a million ! for your note. :-) 

I am away from my piano looking at a beautiful beach in front of me but I couldn’t help thinking about music and brought a bunch of music with me. lol!

on para 1 - yes you guessed right. Light feather touch so I can even play at night without disturbing anyone. Right now I am just trying to memorize a bunch of music to be able to play from memory - so only when there’s no one around do I try full volume on the grand piano.😀

on 2 - the music I can play or rather ‘read a bit ‘ has lots of scalar passages. Mostly Mozart. This Bach piece is a lovely little piece well within reach after many days of playing it a variety of ‘tests’. A wonderful pianist and educator told me about practicing away from the keyboard and it actually works a bit for me. I can hear the first 3 lines exactly in my head without the score both lines! This was impossible for me a month ago.

Also I came across a very nice Scarlatti Sonata that I might try in the near future. 
 

I use the principle of need - practice a technique only if you need it in the music you play😀

if you play Chopin and need B major - do scales at fast tempo in B major 😀

on 3 your playing of the first 2 lines is very clean and nice. This is an easy piece for you.😀

Chopin 10 - 1 is  a dream piece. My hands will be totally ruined if I try that . My paltry skill level will be solely  to blame for it 😂

please post whatever you do. It is quite nice !

Andrew Smith oh oh !I see that you are about to get barraged for an off hand remark LOL 

A teacher and associates have shown up on this page. Duck and hide soon . lol! 

Andrew Smith  To your very astute observation that scales are almost never played 4 octaves - I was wondering about the same thought , but I guessed that it was just to build facility with sections of scalar passages. In fact in Mozart’s A major concerto K414 there is exactly 1 and only 1 instance of a descending scale and only going 3 octaves. I don’t have the score in front of me at this moment but I think it appears near the end of the first movement - all thirty second  notes at great speed descending and ending on the bass clef .  I don’t see much value for hobby players to do all 12 major and minor scales everyday. This will take at least 40 mins! of practice time. Really not necessary! 
A better strategy - pick your piece/pieces to really learn properly - analyze the score -identify if there is any modulation involved if not you will end up with 1 major scale the tonic and the second movement may be in the subdominant or parallel minor. So this narrows it down to maybe 2 scales for that piece - which when practiced everyday will build sufficient facility for the piece.

Also I am of the opinion that practicing scales slowly over a long period of time will not increase your scale speed much. There are other sophisticated methods that top pianists use to get their speed up a lot ! in a much shorter time. I have personally seen demonstrations of scales at 144 bpm to the 16th note done rather effortlessly with no pain or even discomfort by such great  pianists. 

As for me I will only try such methods only after 3 more years of slow playing 😀😀.

Needless to say if you have a teacher they will put a kabash on misguided efforts rather quickly and decisively . 😂 

@Dustin Anderson  :-).  So again to be clear what I said was if one is a hobbyist such as myself ( with no piano career goals in mind at all - yes I will happily admit I  am 60+ yrs old lol!. :-) ) then don't go playing scales in all majors, minors( harmonic, melodic, and natural) as it will probably consume a lot of time which may be better spent in learning some simple repertoire. There are lots of slow tempo pieces that may be accessible.

If you are a 30 something or younger trying to make a career in piano playing ( getting paid for it ! ) then my comments don't apply at all. You absolutely must practice all scales and moreover all types of variations and there are a huge number including the grand scale. All the pianists of several hundred years have gone through exactly what you said starting from Palestrina and Bach I guess continuing on through Mozart, Beethoven, Czerny and so on. 

Regarding hobby players such as myself playing scales slowly is only for evenness and economy of motion for sure. What I was pointing out clearly was that if you are a hobbyist and you play scales at slow tempo for a long time - several years, and hope that your scales will become fast eventually,  that would be a sad and mistaken hope! 

"If you want to play scales fast then you absolutely must practice at fast tempo's there is no really no shortcut around it. :-)."

How one steps it up to fast tempo is a function of both the technique and increments. If the technique is bad/incorrect one is most likely going to get injured - just like in high intensity sports. So one must be super careful in attempting feats of great speed. :-) 

If you disagree with me I will send you a link to one of the fastest scales practice that I have seen done by a young wizard and it shouldn't take you more than a few seconds to realize what is happening as you yourself are an expert  and a teacher of many students on the piano. I am going to assume you can easily do 144+ bpm to the sixteenth :-).  My personal practice is never above 108 bpm to the sixteenth and sometimes just for a few minutes only on the scale of a piece I am trying to learn. Any higher and my right hand fourth finger reminds me with discomfort/pain the next day. lol!

As far as rotating scales in chunks of 3/4 at slow tempo it certainly will help in reading scores as there are lots of scalar passages in most of the longer pieces.  I personally take random long pieces and now just play them at half tempo with a focus on accuracy with frequent stops and it is helping my practice a lot.