Learning Bach's Invention in C Major

Peter_William
updated 1 mth ago
55replies

This page is for Tonebase Players ( Levels 2,3,4,5) who are learning to play this beautiful piece by J S Bach. The discussion here is solely on this piece. If you are interested in discussing your strategies and practice methods please feel free to share as you deem fit. All ideas are welcome.

Higher level players -there are many many here on Tonebase - who are fluent in this piece are extremely welcome to provide advice.

I will start (my level - 2/3 maybe ? ). Heard the piece played by several renowned artists. Read the piece a few times after that on day 1 then proceeded to do the same for a few more days - what I call the really coarse method. Recorded the really coarse version as a checkpoint to see if the strategy is working - record again in 4 days and see if anything has changed. After deciding this piece is perhaps playable in a few weeks/months I have adopted a strategy and describe my process.

1. 1st line RH only ( actually split into 1 measure first then string the rest to a line) -use a metronome at 60 bpm to the quarter note. Play and memorize right away. Close the line and see if there is recall.

2. Same as 1 but for LH.

The final tempo is 120 bpm to the quarter note( it is really fast for my level - so dropped to half speed)

3. Proceed to line 2 in the score only after line 1 is reasonably accurate. Skip ornamentation in the begining.

4. Then play both hands together accurately - just the first line. This is quite tough in the beginning. For the first few hours nothing seemed to work. When I hear the recording I can tell right away that something is off.

So far in about a week of practicing this piece everday there is a bit of progress. Quite noticeably from the recording. Need to baseline it in the next couple of days.

If there is interest in this topic I am happy to share anything I read about or come across that may be useful to anyone else learning this piece. Feel free to post anything that you may think may be useful to others in their learning journey. If there is no interest in this topic I am happy to delete this page promptly. :-)

- hot4euterpe
- 2 wk ago
- Reported - view
said:
Scales don't occur that much outside of Beethoven/Viennese era music

!!?!?!?
- Mom, fitness instructor, lover of music
  
  Michelle_Russell
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  I would like to say, as a hobbyist with no chance at a career as a pianist and someone who began learning the piano in her mid-50's, that I find the learning and practicing of scales in all keys to be invaluable for my progress as a musician. It is absolutely not about speed, but about all the things already spoke of plus this bonus: scales become a playground (or a workshop, depending on your view) for all things "musical." If I want to practice different articulation combinations, dynamic changes (right now, for example, I'm practicing a crescendo in one hand with a dimuendo in the other), etc. then all I need to do is add that skill to my regular scale practice routine and when I encounter that challenge in a piece of repertoire I'm already ahead of the game since it has been practiced and learned in my playground of scales!
  
  Edit: But I will add that if your goal is only to play a few pieces for fun, to add challenge for brain health, and not so interested in working toward more advanced repertoire (whatever that might mean for you), then perhaps the time spent on scales isn't time well-spent. I just know that for me it has been.
- Larry_K
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  I like the word “amateur” better than the word “hobbyist.”
  
  The word “amateur,” borrowed from the French, means “one who loves, lover.”
  
  So, amateur pianists play the piano for the love of it. I think love and music go hand in hand.
- hot4euterpe
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  It doesn’t matter if one is a “hobbyist” pianist or a serious student or a professional etc. What matters is the repertoire that is being played. If someone is playing concertos or even Bach inventions, or sonatas etc. then it is vital that they have the ability to play scales, chords and arpeggios in a wide variety of keys with control and efficiency at speed. This is not a teacher conspiracy or gatekeeping. The repertoire utilizes these forms and figures constantly. One will otherwise be working on these pieces for many years and never really get them to a convincing state. Some very specific skills from that particular piece may improve over those years but at an extremely diminished rate.
  
  One doesn’t learn to swim by jumping in the deep end of a pool. One doesn’t first learn to skate during a game of hockey. One doesn’t learn to factor polynomials before they know basic multiplication and division Etc etc. For some reason we understand the need for fundamental knowledge and skillsets for many things in life but when it comes to piano many convince themselves jumping into masterworks without such fundamentals will somehow be effective. 🤷🏻‍♂️
- Peter_William
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  Awesome points Michelle. Yes I just wanted to set the record straight that I had 0 aspirations to a piano career (frame of reference is 60+) but certainly enjoy playing everyday - a limited repertoire but playing well would be an ideal. :-). That being said I am focussing on not being careless and sloppy and deliberately slowing down my play. Hopefully there may be a listener who says "oh that sounds nice" lol!. I really don't experience any frustration in playing and find most of what I play really accessible at the moment. ( Will not be playing Rach,Listz, or Chopin Etudes in the foreseable future. maybe never... lol! )
- Peter_William
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  For Bach C Major Invention I don't think you need scales, arpeggios in C#minor ! I think.. If a teacher tells me that, I would examine what is in their drink at the party .. lol!.
  
  I only practice the C maj. scale for that piece and only because the final tempo is at around 120bpm to the sixteenth. My intention is to memorize it correctly both hands separately reasonably and then put them together in a few weeks ( maybe at around 60bpm.. which is quite comfortable ) Everything else would be extraneous to the piece.
  
  I have pasted 2 min. recordings of both hands separately above after just a few days of practice and don't think this is an extraordinarily difficult piece at the moment. You are welcome to hack the playing immediately I will not be offended at all and would seek ways to improve based on your comment. :-)
  
  I also plan to post a hands together version in the next few days of maybe the first page ( there are only 2 pages here unlike the concerto)
- hot4euterpe
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  🤦🏻‍♂️
- Peter_William
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  Don't hesitate to hack the playing ( 2min segments) .. Teachers can absolutely speak their mind on the playing - that's how students like me will get better on this online platform. Thanks in advance
- PViseskul
- 12 days ago
- Reported - view
said:
right now, for example, I'm practicing a crescendo in one hand with a dimuendo in the other

That's exactly what I tried to do the other day 😂 to help with the opening bar of the Haydn sonata I'm working on - and not succeeded yet.

My current teacher made me do various scale combinations during the first few lessons with him partly also to gauge my coordinations - the different combinations and musical context (dynamics, polyrhythms, articulations, styles ...) you can add to the scale so it doesn't become just another boring drills. Though one thing he never asked nor cared about was for me to play them fast.
- Mom, fitness instructor, lover of music
- Michelle_Russell
- 12 days ago
- Reported - view
said:
That's exactly what I tried to do the other day 😂 to help with the opening bar of the Haydn sonata I'm working on - and not succeeded yet.

It's challenging, right!?! I'm moderately successful at a slow tempo - my teacher said he was much more interested in my using scales in these other ways right now than in working on speed.
- PViseskul
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  it totally cooked my brain 😂🍳
- Peter_William
  
  12 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  I looked at the score a few days ago and quickly closed the page.. lol!. Sonatas are deferred for at least a year at the moment for me.
  
  BTW - I just found the link to your playing.. Really really good ! :-) Posted a like on your page.
- Mom, fitness instructor, lover of music
- Michelle_Russell
- 12 days ago
- Reported - view
said:
I like the word “amateur” better than the word “hobbyist.”

Agreed - I was merely using the word Peter used in his post. 🙂
- Peter_William
- 11 days ago
- Reported - view
I have been making steady progress on the both hands front.

It is a bit slow. Let me know if I should post it here in a few days or we can sync up on DM and go into silent mode here. :-). Talking on the channel has not proven to be of much use to the playing so far.. lol!

The only problem is my ears are still clogged from sea water. Spent many hours in the ocean over the weekend.
- Andrew_Smith
  
  11 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  HI Peter -- Good to hear about the progress. Either option, here or DM, is fine with me. Thanks. Maybe sometime this weekend? And, do I get an award for opening a can of worms regarding scales?
  
  Cheers,
- Peter_William
  
  11 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  ha ha. I think we are doing the right thing. Just focus on playing and some comments to improve on the actual playing. The rest is recreational banter I don't suffer it very easily. So no worries we can toss every can of worms aside and take the essence of what is needed.
  
  Yes scales are definitely needed for all around musicianship and improvement. :-). After I retire I will be adding 45 mins of just scale practice everyday lol!. Have bought a bunch of really nice books that need to be played carefully.
  
  On the piece itself getting both hands together even after hands separate practice is still challenging ! But some gates have opened already.. :-)
- hot4euterpe
- 11 days ago
- Reported - view
If you post in a public forum you will get a public response!

Best of luck to you both though regardless. I'm sure it will all work out as it should.
- Peter_William
  
  10 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  Feel free to hack the playing. There will be lots to criticize on my paltry attempts. :-). I will take it very constructively and am not easily offended or intimidated by teachers. lol!
- Peter_William
- 6 days ago
- Reported - view
apologies I wanted to record this weekend but didn’t. A small update-

Still doggedly pursuing memorization. Experimented with a new technique. I coined it the the “2 bars hands together calculus of music” method. After a few days of merely infinitesimal progress the terrible line 3 seems to be falling into place. I think I now have the first page - mostly memorized with stealthy glances to check . lol .. is this worth posting ? The second page looks less daunting. Yes I am skipping the beautiful ornaments at the moment and will come back to it after the whole piece is fully memorized. I hope the learning time doesn’t grow exponentially on the second page . 😂
- Andrew_Smith
  
  5 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  HI Peter and thanks for the update. Of course you are the best judge of whether a posting would be useful for you at this point. So I don't have a strong opinion.
  
  But if I were learning a piece, I might post a recording if:
  
  * I felt I could play through a page or so pretty well but wanted to see if others saw or heard something that I wasn't aware of or needed to prioritize more.
  
  * I could play decent chunks of it well but also had a few persistent trouble spots -- by showing those trouble spots, maybe the viewer has a good tip on how to practice them/what's really causing the difficulty.
  
  * I feel the progress is pretty good given my level and I just want share that.
  
  Happy playing, and I'll stay tuned!
- Peter_William
  
  5 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  ok I think maybe best to wait a few more days/weeks until the piece is fully done. Hoping that you will review the recording and post comments on improvements :-)
- Peter_William
- 3 days ago
- Reported - view
Lest too many hours pass by without accountable progress I was thinking of recording this evening what I have so far - hands together -slow tempo.

My excuse is that a blue Yeti ( mic) arrived from Amazon a few weeks ago and finally I got some time to open the box - so it might be good to test the recording with it.

Before we start a maelstorm of conversation here - yes tech is not of much help in playing the piano. The only thing that matters is dogged persistance with the score, and practice on the keyboard :-).

On re- reading your first note I missed answering a question - whether I could do mental practice? The answer is absolutely not!. I don't hear any sound from printed page - without touching the key. This is a skill I will pay in gold to acquire - lol!. But alas this is in an innate skill ! either one is born with it or one has to deal with a lack of it. lol!. In my case it is the latter.

But I can memorize for sure - tested it over the past few days.

The next post will be the link to the practice - no words. lol!
- Andrew_Smith
  
  3 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  Hi Peter -- thanks for your message. Again, no rush on anything. As long as you are doing steady, regular practice, just relax and learn at whatever pace works for you (though we all need an occasional fire lit under our rear ends).
  
  As for mental practice, I think it's not a yes/no but probably a matter of degree. For example, you can surely hear songs, from the simple ones, like "happy birthday," to more complex things, in your head. Perhaps with complex or lengthy pieces one can't hear everything clearly or there are gaps; that's normal.
  
  So what I mean by mental practice: for example, you could listen to a recording of the Invention on Youtube or wherever, without the score. Next, sit at a table away from the piano and take out the score and just try to hear the first four or eight bars of music in your head. Next, at the table just play your RH on the table, maybe close your eyes, picturing the keyboard and notes you play. That's all. Go back to the score and/or piano to cheat in places where you are less certain mentally, then do it again on the table away from the piano and without looking at the score.
  
  Have fun!
- Peter_William
  
  3 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  ah yes on para 1. I am proceeding very slowly. The point regarding urgency is well taken. I do need the proverbial fire under the .. lol. as musical sloppiness is a bane to deal with.
  
  on para 2 and para 3. Oh I do hear the invention very clearly in my head since it has been tossed, turned and examined in 1 bar, 2 bar, 3 bar sequences for several weeks now. It is on a new piece of music with the score in front of me - that the notes don't jump out at all. I cannot hear any sound - nada not even a note. Although I had an idea 2 evenings ago which was to sing the solfege on the piano - just the scale. I have heard some great masters on the internet talk about singing the whole thing almost like it was learned poetry. It is bewildering that they can do that. When I tested myself with the solfege by blinding the keys and striking it and mentally calling out the note I was quite often wrong which is surprising to me since as soon as I play even a note on the 3rd /4th line of the C maj invention I can almost instantly say 'that is a wrong note'. But then I do not have any interval training an essential part of the curricula at RCM or ABRSM in the very early grades. Most likely I would fail all of those exams at the moment. lol! Now I am considering undergoing a serious boot camp of interval training for future pieces.
  
  But the memorization is coming along quite well on the invention. Just wondering since there are a cycle of 15 inventions to learn and play - whether the cycle can reduce down to 2 weeks each - start to finish on the rest of the inventions. That would be really nice. This one has gone over 3 weeks already!.
- hot4euterpe
- 3 days ago
- Reported - view
said:
I don't hear any sound from printed page - without touching the key. This is a skill I will pay in gold to acquire - lol!. But alas this is in an innate skill ! either one is born with it or one has to deal with a lack of it. lol!. In my case it is the latter.

Good news! this is not an innate skill. No one is born able to interpret notation into sound. You develop this through a combination of sight-reading and ear training skills (often called musicianship). Some develop this skill more quickly than others but it is a trained skill not an innate one.
- Peter_William
  
  3 days ago
  
  Reported - view
  This is indeed a very difficult skill to acquire. I came across some great masters on the internet and they could sing entire pieces in their head and then proceed to play it. They also hear the sound between notes !.. I do not even know what that means. On the RCM exam programs I have seen interval training videos and chord quality identification videos that seem to develop this ability for students over several years.