Back in the saddle again! Please, advise!
Hello everyone. I need advice. I played the piano when I was growing up in Greece from the age of 7 to 22. During that time, I passed my prelims, got what would amount to a B.A. in Piano Performance (you could only get it from Conservatories, which are not exactly colleges) and then passed my so-called Dexterity on my way to the Diploma of Artist. I was pretty good and had every chance of getting it, but I was seriously injured as a result of joint hyper mobility of my elbows (among other places). Bad teachers, worse doctors, and eventually graduate school and moving to the US led me to stop playing altogether for a whopping 25 years!
About 8 years ago, and following advice from good American doctors and lots of physical therapy, and, oddly enough mercifully breaking one of my elbows following an accident which accidentally also fixed the problem on my worse elbow (!), I bought a piano because, well, I was itching and had been cleared for taking it up again. Since then, I've been playing around for fun, but nothing consistent. The first time I listened to a Tonebase series of lessons, I felt I had literally learned in half an hour more than I had learned in Greece in 15 years!
So now I want to take it seriously and set up a study routine. At first, I tried to go back to what I knew but a) it's not that great, b) it's boring, c) it's not modern, and d) it's obviously ineffective. Ideally, I would like do a decent warmup, whatever comes next, and play some stuff I like. For the moment, I'd like to be consistent and gradually improve, not get to Rach 3 in a year so to speak! Not even Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto, which was the last thing that I played before I stopped altogether. I'm a realist, but I think that, if I persevere, I'll get to where I was more or less (not necessarily Rach 3 which is OK, but it doesn't really excite me that much, I would only do it for reasons of vanity which is never a good idea, so I probably won't ever).
Here are my questions:
1) How long should I practice daily? And how to I raise that stake? In general, how long do people practice?
2) What should I play?
3) How long do you think it will take me to get to a decent shape and how would you personally define decent shape?
4) Based on the Tonebase material, what "package" of practice lessons should I put together in order to establish a routine?
5) Any other advice?
FYI, I intend to do my physical therapy every day, and I even have some remedial DVDs for injuries just to be on the safe side. I don't think Tonebase has something along these lines, does it? If so, could you direct me to it? What has sort of kept me from expressing myself better was fear I don't know how to actually play any more, nor how to place my hand on the keyboard. I don't even know if this is true. I have also not dared to establish whether I can still play without a score. I guess these are some hurdles I will eventually overcome since, as a friend says, nobody is asking me to go play at Carnegie Hall. It's just me at home with my piano. OK, my dog and cat too listening. My other dog, who died a few years ago, actually had opinions about my playing. He was OK if I studied carefully but hated sloppy work. But that's for another post, I suppose.
I will be eternally grateful for any opinions and advice. To be honest, I am writing the above with some trepidation, constantly reminding myself I am not committing a crime, and I love my day job, which has always been my actual calling in life, and which is not related to music. lol
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Congratulations on picking it up again! Though you have a goal of reaching your previous level of playing, I hope you can savor the journey.
My wish for you can be taken as advice too: enjoy the process
Unless you have specific professional or credential goals, it seems to me that those questions (aside from tonebase recommendationa) are best answered by you: what do you like to play, and what are your goals? What standard do you want to have for yoursel? Others can provide answers but thatâs like someone telling you what your goals in life should be.
May I suggest you reflect on (and please feel free to share!) what music you enjoyed playing in the past or want to play now? Then you could define some sub goals for a plan that can get you there.That said, in my experience as a student, Bach and Mozart have been great music for getting back into playing again
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I am SO excited for you to get back to playing! I teach adults who are coming back after many years (or decades), but none at your level.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at all the muscle memory your brain as retained.
Might I suggest, to help you get through some of the potential mental blocks, that you start on a different style of music? What do you like to listen to for funâŠjazz, rock, pop, for instance?
Also, I would encourage some fun improvâŠ. Playing 7th chord progressions with some improv melodies is great fun. Find your joy again in playing first.
And then see where you would like to go from there.
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Thanks for the answers and the encouragement. What I like to play: Beethoven, Beethoven, and Beethoven! (kidding) I usually played some Baroque (Bach), as well as music from the Classical and Romantic periods. My favorites are Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, and both the Schumanns. My fear is not the composers themselves. It is not knowing how to warm up properly, how to avoid injuries, if I am on the right track with technique. This is why I want suggestions about a Tonebase-based routine.
I'm intimidated by Jazz, rock, or pop (haven't even thought about me in connection to them) and have never improvised in my life. I wouldn't even know how to start. In general, my music instruction was "you follow religiously what the score and your teacher say, and that's that." So I am at a loss, but I do welcome suggestions.
And yes, I have to learn to enjoy the journey because it's gonna be long. What I want to avoid is thinking that oh, I used to be so good, how the mighty have fallen, are they ever gonna rise again? And if they do, what about injuries, etc. I do have muscle memory, so yes, Beth, you are right, but what if I do something wrong? My colleagues suggested I play before them, but I haven't dared do exhibit myself before a human yet, so they are not getting their wish. lol
To answer a few questions: I have no professional goals. I'm an Archaeologist and ecstatic about it, I am a Professor, so music only rarely comes in it, although my students have claimed in the past I give great lectures on music soundtracks when I teach Antiquity in Film: Star Wars or on opera when I teach Cleopatra's Egypt.
Anyway, thanks again, and I welcome suggestions.
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Elizabeth (aka Goddess), I think it is such a shame that classical pianists are not trained in composition & improv. Dr. John Mortensen & others are trying to bring back historic classical improv that was common in the early centuries of classical music. His first book was The Pianistâs Guide to Historic Improvisation. I think you would have a blast with it. Much of it is over my head!
You asked, âWhat if I do something wrong?â Well, what if you do? Will the piano police come after you?
. Obviously if something hurts, stop.
For the best use of using your body naturally, I highly recommend the Alexander Technique. The Mind Body Music School has online courses in this. Otherwise, start with easier music & just play for fun for a while.
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Beth Lester , thanks for the Idas. Well, since I'm really not a goddess, I doubt I can ever play for anything other than fun! lol Regarding improvisation, I always thought it's something someone could do only if they were born with that talent and went something like this: "I am not a composer, only an interpreter. Beethoven was a composer and a god of improvisation. I am not Beethoven, ergo, I cannot improvise." However, I wouldn't mind trying that as well. As you very aptly said, the piano police will not come barging in.
And come to think of it, even Beethoven took music lessons, so... People of all abilities can learn.
Thanks!
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Elizabeth Kosmetatou That is such a myth that youâre born with it or not. Iâm afraid itâs probably more like it gets trained out of us & weâre brainwashed into believing we canât do it.
I just remembered that Tonebase has some lessons from John Mortensen. Check it out!
Iâm encouraging you to try something different because it will work a different part of your brain & hopefully help you get through some of the brain blocks/beliefs you may be carrying. Also, if you play the same music, you may use the same old patterns that cause injury in the past. Good luck!!
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Hi Elizabeth Kosmetatou welcome and thank you for sharing your experience with all of us!
There are a number of things I can offer to you:
First of all are a few live-streamed lessons that I have given that "might" be of help (not sure!)
Perhaps take a look at some of them and see if any of them resonant with you?
EDIT: all the links below are now functioning properly!
chopin's etude no.1 is for everyone! (why you should be practicing it)
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/chopin-etude-1-for-everyone
"russian scales": developing speed and confidence!
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/russian-style-scales
reaching your practice goals: systems and routines
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/pno-practice-routines-systems
improving your arpeggios in every way! with dominic cheli
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/pno-improve-arpeggios-everyway
a guide to hanon's exercises (how to make the most of them!)
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/pno-hanon-exercises-live
practice advice: is this piece too difficult for me?
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/is-this-piece-too-difficult-dominic
how to create a 6 month practice plan!
join event: https://app.tonebase.co/piano/live/player/create-6-month-practice-plan-dominic-cheli
Answering your questions by number:
1. if you are starting from literally 0 minutes I recommend most people start at 30 minutes a day. That isn't a huge jump in time and can certainly still reap benefits. I mention in some of my livestreams that:
Don't warm up with scales and arpeggios. They are very difficult! Warm up on slow music, either a fast piece played slowly, or a slow movement
Once you get to that 1 hour mark I recommend 15 minutes a day to scales and arpeggios (I demonstrate in many of these above lessons how to practice them). 5 minutes on sight-reading, Maybe 35-40 minutes on a new piece OR 25 minutes on old piece (perfecting it) and then 15 minutes or so on brand new one (fingering, etc...)
Perhaps use that method of practicing (systems and routines stream) where you play NOT an hour straight but: 20/10 (20 minutes playing, 10 minute break) or 7/5 rule (7 minutes on, 5 off).
2. What should you play? A variety of pieces of different levels. Something TOO easy so that you can really focus on musical challenges (phrasing, pedaling, memorization, dynamics etc...) As well as something that is challenging perhaps a dream piece or a piece that focuses on a technical skill you want to improve. (my stream on "is this piece too difficult for me?" might offer guidance.
3. Decent shape is being able to execute a piece in a satisfying way. That could be memorized or with the music. So, I consider someone in decent shape if they are playing Rach 3 confidently OR if they are playing a Haydn sonata movement confidently. That means you can play a piece of music for your enjoyment and others!
I also specify in some of my lessons that decent shape also means that a person has command over all major/minor/chromatic scales and arpeggios. This means you can have so much power of the keyboard!
4. I give you the above lesson livestreams because they specifically address some of these issues that many people go through. Our content library has so much to offer, and perhaps those streams, plus taking the level quiz to get suggested lessons per your abilities would be helpful! Have you taken the tonebase level quiz yet?
5. Be patient and kind to yourself! Set goals! For example, tomorrow, we have a Community concert on tonebase.
https://piano-community.tonebase.co/t/q6h995q/kick-off-to-the-holidays-concert
We have probably about 8-10 community concerts on zoom a year here at tonebase. It is a great opportunity to play LIVE and set a goal for your piece's journey. The Audiences are incredibly generous and gracious. ALL levels are welcome and people have a good time plus challenge themselves!
If you are curious, join us tomorrow as an audience member!
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Dominic Cheli Also stay tuned for our practice challenges and two-week intensives. For example this upcoming one on Schubert:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ctLcAyLbrW20ykk2_tg4tWDrEo6XdKD6ps5tNXd2gmc/edit
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Dominic Cheli , thanks so much for your detailed answer! I'm not sure which quiz you mean. I had taken a quiz initially, where I basically said I had an advanced degree, the quiz declared me more or less a goddess (kidding), and in reality I sound like a kid who's just starting and cannot even color. :)
I will attend the events you mention.
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Elizabeth Kosmetatou have you taken this quiz?
https://app.tonebase.co/piano/level?tbModal=levelSystemQuizModal -
Elizabeth Kosmetatou Also those events are recordings of past livestreams! We have new livestreams all the time. And certainly will talk about some of those topics again.
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Dominic Cheli so I took the quiz and it says I'm level 7 which I can't believe, but anyway. I tried to answer as best as I could and made sure I did not include what I could do in the past and. cannot do now. My brain is advanced to be sure, above level 7, but my hands tell a different story.
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Elizabeth Kosmetatou Would you consider yourself at an intermediate level, or more of a beginner level? Being in Level 7 means that you would be considered intermediate, able to play perhaps a Chopin nocturne, a movement from a Bach Suite, or a Debussy prelude!
Does that sound about your level?
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Elizabeth Kosmetatou I would say playing the Emperor Concerto is advanced! So at one point you certainly would have been a level 8 or 9 at least!
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Elizabeth Kosmetatou
Our maximum level is 12. That would be Rachmaninoff Concertos. And yes, getting from level 10 to level 12 is CONSIDERABLY more difficult than going from level 1 to 5
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Dominic Cheli , my program for the Diploma of Artist final exam, which I never took because of the injury, included Emperor, Chopin's Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante, Chopin's op. 10 no. 1 and op. 25 no. 1, the Appassionata, a couple of Volume 2 Wohltemperierte Klavier, and I cannot remember what else. I had begun working on it in earnest, and I believe I could have made it just fine had it not been for the injury.
For my B.A. final exam, I played Tempest, Black Keys, Chopin's op. 10, no. 12, Mozart's 24th piano concerto, Rachmaninoff's op. 23 no. 2 (which I could play as it was composed apart from one accord I turned into an arpeggio because I have large hands but not as large as Rachmaninoff's, alas!). I can't remember what else, but there was a Mozart sonata as well, if I remember well, two Wohltemperierte Klavier (Volume 1, I think), and I cannot remember if there was any Czerny, whom I hated with a passion back then. I love Rachmaninoff's op. 23 no. 2, but right now, I can only look at it and admire the binding, and that's about it.You may be right I am at intermediate level now, and I'm actually surprised about it because I thought I was a beginner at best. I have been working on Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto (starting 3rd movement now if I find the time), I'm trying to go back to my favorite Chopin Nocturne (no. 13, op. 48 no. 2, I think). I can definitely play any Bach I've ever played, including Wohltemperierte Klavier (OK, volume 1 only I guess), I can play a couple of Schumann's Kinderszenen, but I've never played Debussy. The problem is I play none of them well, and I'm constantly concerned I'm playing them all wrong.
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Apologies I just saw that many of these links are not working. Let me see about this!
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All links have been updated!
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Hello Elizabeth, I too, had stopped for more than 25 years while I was working full time . I want to get back to it and play chamber music before I retire, I was lucky to have found a very fine teacher. she died some years ago, I now have a fabulous teacher who is a concert artist and an excellent teacher. What I wanted to say is that , given your musical training, you should find a teacher of the same caliber as those you have heard and seen at Tone base, it really will help you set up a habit and guidance for practice. You will need to audition for them. It is inspiring to learn from someone that good. My teacher is never at a loss for words how to improve me. I only take a lesson once every 2 weeks, because I cannot prepare for a lesson sooner than that. Even if you have to go every 3 weeks, at least there will be a goal for you to practice. I know otherwise, I wonât practice. Good luck.
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Elizabeth
What a journey you have had! We have similar stories but you were much more advanced than me when your journey was interrupted. I would advise you to re-enter school as a graduate student in performance. Unfortunately, age is a barrier. I think that if you just want to play what you were previously able to or to improve your repetoire, you need a great teacher. Yes tone base is a fantastic resource but the work you need to do will require the expertise of someone who understands your ability and can help you rediscover some of those skills. You may be given guidelines for practice strategies and advice on pieces from tone base. Just practicing on your own however will not give you the feedback to improve. I went back to school at age 60 and obtained my BA in music. I played in student concerts and even had a senior recital. It has made me a better musician but I was discouraged when even some of the professors did not take me seriously. It did help me develop better practice techniques and I cannot say enough about how
performances really helped me. Tone base also has some performance opportunities and you should take advantage of them or any performance opportunities. It gives you goals to work towards which is very motivating. This is your journey and try to understand what you want to achieve and work towards that, no matter what the obstacles are. You have already overcome so many.
Good Luck and Keep us posted
Cindy Sharp
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I think many people on Tonebase piano are returning adults after many years of hiatus (myself 20+ years, however not as advanced as you were when I stopped back then).
From my own experience, my advice is to scale back the difficulties a few notches back and focus on getting the right/comfortable movements to produce good tone. After a couple of years coming back to piano, I decided to go right back to basic to revamp my techniques due to tension in my hands and forearms playing 3rd movement of Beethoven's Tempest Sonata. The time and patience spent on rebuilding techniques was worth it.
I recommend checking out these courses:
Keyboard Choreography
Principles of the Taubman Approach
Technique Training
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Just want to second Principles of the Taubman Approach. I think Dorothy Taubman's work is really key. Avoiding injury isn't about warming up or even playing easier pieces. It's about using the body the way it was meant to be used. (Of course, figuring that out is easier on easier repertoire.)
I have studied with Robert Durso for a little over three months now. His insights are magical. Obviously, watching his video lectures is not the same as working with him in person, but it is really amazing how an issue I am having at the piano can be traced back to one of those principles. As far as repertoire, he took me through Mozart K. 333, 1st and 3rd mvts, and then recommended I pick a Chopin Mazurka and Debussy Prelude, so those areas might be interesting for you to look at as well.
All the videos are important, but pay particular attention to the In and Out lecture. It's just shocking to me how often Bob can take a passage I was fumbling and make it simple by suggesting I change one finger from an in position to out or vice versa.
