Nocturne in F# Minor- final measures help with grace notes

Hi all, I'm trying to remember how to interpret this notation in measure 131-134.  When coming out of the trill with the grace notes- B# and C#, I noticed in the Paderewski edition that the left hand B is noted natural.  If I am recalling correctly, he is just indicating that the right hand stays B#, while the left hand triplet stays natural correct?  The Ekier edition does not indicate the natural.

 

My next issue is the timing of that B in the left hand with the duplet grace notes and the subsequent measures where it is three grace notes.  I believe that the B natural in the Left hand should come a microsecond before the B#-C# correct?  I am not sure about the subsequent measures where now the grace notes are B#-C#-C#.  In the Ekier it seems the Left hand B natural is coming in-between the two C#'s, but Paderewski has the B natural and B# connected- which is really harsh.

I've listened to every recording out there and the timings are all over the place. Hard to tell what Rubinstein and Ohlsson are doing which are my usual goto's.

 

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

Carlos

15 replies

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    • hot4euterpe
    • 13 days ago
    • Reported - view

    In regard to your first question, you are correct. The natural from Paderewski edition would just be a editorial courtesy accidental (since the grace note sharp is the same "B").

    I think you are asking about the timing of the trill terminations for your second question? Your observation about performers all doing it differently is your answer! I personally just time the two notes against the LH B - the B# is too rapid and is already clearly part of the trill by the time it is played so its not harsh once in context and up to speed. The three grace note are actually just the two note termination and then an acciaccatura grace note C# so it is just snapped off right before beat 4. An agogic displacement of beat 4 can be nice here to avoid sounding frantic and to make the large leap more dramatic and rhetorical.  

    • Noel_Nguyen
    • 13 days ago
    • Reported - view

    I believe in the Paderewski the left B and right B# are meant to be played together each time! There's even dotted lines in bars 133-134 that mean to play the "clashing" notes together. So I think what you find harsh is precisely what that score asks you to play. In fact I don't find it harsh sounding if played with the right feeling. Now I'm not sure if the Ekier means the same thing, but that's how I would play it either way.

    • hot4euterpe
    • 13 days ago
    • Reported - view

    I meant to add that I absolutely love this nocturne! I often suggest it to my students but they tend to go with favourites like Op. 9 No. 1 or the posthumous E minor nocturne. 

      • Akzent oder Diminuendo? • Hanon/Herz student
      • Maria_F
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I have either played or am learning both of the nocturnes that you mentioned, and plan to learn Nocturne in F# Minor. I love almost all of Chopin's Nocturnes. 

      • claudiadm73
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

       It's true, Dustin, I love this F#minor nocturne too and play it often…. I find it truly magical in the atmosphere it creates and in the sublime beauty of the singing🥰🥰

    • Docstargazer
    • 12 days ago
    • Reported - view

      

    thank you both for your suggestions!

    really appreciate the explanation and the agogic pause you mention Dustin. This all makes much more sense now.
    Agree! I find this Nocturne so delicate and tender. it just pulls at me internally. Hard to describe. I’ve been wanting to tackle it for a long time. I’ve been rebuilding my technique after years away but things are starting to come back. Working out the E minor nocturne first helped immensely. I’m polishing that one off and decided to start working on the F# minor- working on it from both ends lol- backwards and forwards. Ha ha!

    thank you all again! This really is a great platform and community. !

      • Noel_Nguyen
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Listen more to Dustin, he's a teacher. I'm just an advanced player (or so I've been told). The things I do may not be advisable for everybody. That's why I always answer those questions with "this is how I'd do it"😁.

      • hot4euterpe
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Your suggestion was very thoughtful and accurate! But certainly thank you for your kind acknowledgement =)

      • Noel_Nguyen
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Well thank you for your own kind words😄. I just believe that teaching is a distinct skill from playing. I remember one particular time when my son was struggling and I made some suggestions. Let's just say his teacher was not quite happy at the following lesson. While acknowledging that my suggestions were technically correct, she said even a correct suggestion given at the wrong time can be harmful! So now I'm always very hesitant to give suggestions, but sometimes I just can't help it😅.

    • Docstargazer
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Thanks Noel! 😄

    • Docstargazer
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    If I can indulge  - am I on the right track.  Please be critical lol.  Thanks!

    Carlos

      • hot4euterpe
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Hi Carlos - this sounds quite reasonable to me. How does it feel / sound to you at tempo?

      I will add that the grace notes do not necessarily need to be 16ths themselves, they just mark the manner in which one starts and ends the trill. You may notice that in some recordings the terminations are played as 32nds to match the rate of a rapid trill (with 1 extra trill repercussion therefore aligning with the B natural). However, your way of doing it works too; it just gives it feel of lightly easing into and out of the trill =)

      • Akzent oder Diminuendo? • Hanon/Herz student
      • Maria_F
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

       I agree with Dustin that you are on the right track. 

    • Docstargazer
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

      

    thank you! I appreciate your encouragement 😃. I like where I was going with this but I still need to get more confident to bring it up to tempo. I see what you mean about playing the grace notes as 16ths. I did not appreciate that I was doing that.  I was focusing on maintaining the left hand meter which was falling apart on me when I introduced the right hand. I feel like I have fixed that problem so will focus on the grace notes leading in. I like the way I exit them slower- I noticed ohlsson does this in his recording. 
     

    thank you again! This has been immensely helpful! 🙏🏼

      • hot4euterpe
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

       Anytime =)

Content aside

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