Group 4

Kerstin Hi Kerstin, good to see you in here again. Sounds great. These are challenging and effective tools for practice. 

Gary Hamer Hi Gary! Thanks , I like it to learn some new things and  to get new ideas. Are you in group 4 too? What are you practicing right now? 🙋‍♀️

Kerstin Gary Hamer I love these ideas and I don't use metronome in my practice either. I find it hard to practice the walking, as I get distracted from my notes. I need to practice more feeling the pulse through body movement. I'll post video this weekend when I feel more comfortable. JS Bach BWV999. 

Kerstin Well done, Kerstin!  The one-pulse-per-bar in the Tempest is working really well.  Similarly to my comment to Gary, once you're feeling fluent here, the next step is probably to give yourself the next bigger unit by a factor of 2, meaning one metronome pulse every bar.  Let me know how it goes!  Speaking subdivisions also looks right on target.  Your pulse sounds consistent, strong, and intentional.  If you feel so inclined (and I do, when I play this piece) places like the end of m. 57 (E-diminished-7, which is very dissonant) and m. 58 (the end of the phrase) are great places to stretch the tempo a little bit.  You can exercise that freedom by letting your subdivisions breathe.  Join us in the live session next week if you can!

ALICE BWV 999 is a great idea--coincidentally I just assigned that piece to a new student this week, not coincidentally using some of these practice ideas.  Depending on your level of comfort, eighth-note pulse in walking works well at first.  If that becomes easy, move to quarter notes.  Post whenever you're ready!

Johnandrew Slominski Glad to hear you have a student similar to my level. Tonebase members are often at a much higher level than me. Honestly I felt very challenging/uncomfortable to walk and play at the same time. I'm not sure if I get the 8th-note and quarter-note right either. Should I start to use metronome to practice? I usually sing the melody when I practice a piece but I have yet to develop a habit of steady pulse using metronome or the methods you explained. For the off-beat metronome, I could it get it to work yet. I'll keep trying. I am attending live Zoom session!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwxik5OhaN8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZObPp3KIBXE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKoVzGpK1cE

Johnandrew Slominski Thanks for your answer. I have here a wonderful problem with Mozart. How would you say I should practice to get the rhythm in ? I try to work out , but to play it’s not easy. Do you have any advice?

LG Kerstin

Kerstin Oh, yes!  Those 8:3 rhythms and such are tricky (I'm guessing this is the challenge?).  We could spend ages doing the math, which may or may not be helpful or practical.  What I'd suggest for the first measure on p. 9, for instance, is to reduce the RH to what amounts to duplets against the LH triplets.  This would mean that the bar in question is now B-A-G-C#-C-B |.  Sounds weird, but we're composing backward, or reducing, so go with it for a moment.  If you can do that, you're aligning the rhythmic framework up with 2:3.  Once that becomes painfully simple through thoughtful repetition, add a second level of subdivisions: now in your RH in that measure, you'll play B-G#-A-F-G-E-C#-A-C-B |.  You'll remain focused on the 2:3 framework from the previous step, now adding an "extra" note, or composing forward, or elaborating.  The next step is adding in all the notes, and your "mileposts" to focus on there as you play in real time will be the alignment of that original 2:3 framework.  Let me know how it goes!

ALICE Thanks for sending the videos, and thanks for going out on a limb to try new and slightly unconventional things!  To cut to the chase, it's fascinating to me that your subdivisions or walking sometimes align with your playing, and sometimes not.  Hmm.  You ask about the metronome, and the off-beat metronome: I'd steer you away from the off-beat metronome for a while, and my guess is that using the metronome in a conventional way may be useful.

To stick with walking for a moment would be a good idea.  The real challenge, I think, is that the number of notes per "step" isn't always 2, and for now, this is going to be our goal!  This is not really a "piano" issue because as you sing before playing (which is lovely and a very good idea, by the way--keep doing that!) your rhythm isn't lining up with your feet either.  Have you walked with the metronome without playing?  I'd do that--two clicks per step, and you can do this at the piano or really anywhere.  Start around 128 bpm--a medium walking tempo.  Practice feet and metronome alone for a bit, then add "ta" subdivisions that lock in with the metronome while your feet walk.  After that is comfortable and really reliable, I'd also suggest playing a strong accent (just for practice--you'll take it out later) every time your foot hits the ground.  It may also be helpful to make a little mark in your score--"R" for right foot, "L" for left foot, so you can see where you're aiming with your coordination.  

Keep me posted, and I hope this is helpful.  Again, Alice, I think this about something bigger than "Alice playing the piano" - it's a coordination goal of syncing your internal sense of time with your physical sense of time and pulse.  Once those things align, you'll be much more successful at implementing at the piano.  If you're taking lessons, I'd highly recommend asking your instructor to spend some time on rhythm work with you: if we were working together we'd be doing call and response echo patterns, takadimi or similar syllables, using conducting patterns, and putting beats and subdivisions in different parts of our bodies (feet, hands, and speaking).  Just my two cents.

Johnandrew Slominski This is super helpful! I'm starting the walking with metronome right away. I've been having difficulty with steady pulse since I started private piano lesson a bit over a year ago. When I sing I also have difficulty to stay in sync with accompanist because I couldn't figure out the steady pulse. I hope to improve this using the methods. Do you have more information on " call and response echo patterns, takadimi or similar syllables, using conducting patterns, and putting beats and subdivisions in different parts of our bodies (feet, hands, and speaking)"? links? videos that you think are helpful? I recently found a local private teacher (was taking online lessons with a remote teacher for a year) and I will certainly bring this up with her. Any resources you could share are greatly appreciated! 

Johnandrew Slominski Instead of walking, can I use one foot to tap the subdivision? I noticed I slowed down the walk as I get "tired(?)". Maybe not a "tired"issue still a rhythm issue. I'm not sure. 

ALICE Sure, you can tap one foot and see how it goes.  Practicing in moderation is a good idea, too--if you're getting tired it's probably time for a break!  I find that tapping a single foot isn't as effective (long story short: it doesn't have the same bilateral effect) but it might work for you.

ALICE There's lots to say about philosophical and pedagogical approaches to learning and teaching rhythm.  One of the first things I do with my early students (folks with <2 years or so) is rhythm practice that involves no notation, progressing eventually toward notation.  In my experience it's not something that's effectively self taught (imagine learning, say, how to swim by reading a book).  I can teach others, and teach others to teach, and with luck your instructor has some experience here.  If they do, they'll likely know or recognize methods including Takadimi (or other rhythmic syllabification systems), Orff, Suzuki, Edwin Gordon, Grunow & Azzara, Dalcroze, or some combination of one or more of these.  I'm particularly interested in evidence-based approaches, which some of these are (Gordon, Grunow).  Your instructor may be wonderful, and if they draw a blank on all of these that may be something to consider. Your instructor may also have their own system, which could also be fine.  I'd suggest inquiring with them to see what their thoughts are, and if they're familiar with the approaches I mentioned.  (I'm trying to tread lightly here since I have no specific knowledge of your or your teacher's specific case.  I'm also assuming that they're doing a lot of good for you!). Finally, I'd suggest taking a look at a book that's very good for practicing resources; keep in mind that in order to use these effectively you really do need effective instruction as well: Anne Carothers Hall, "Studying Rhythm".  Keep me posted!

Johnandrew Slominski Thanks!!! Getting better now. Still a little bit unnatural, but needs more practicing. https://youtube.com/shorts/EhDHG3kedRQ?feature=share
LG Kerstin 

Kerstin Very nice playing!

Gary Hamer Hi Gary! Great to meet you here. This Ballade is quite challenging. Yes, these are interesting ideas to get a tempo feeling and a pulse. ✨

Gary Hamer Superb work, Gary!  I appreciate what you said about feeling grounded and getting rhythmic impulse.  You're 100% on the right track here, and that feeling of grounding (I like that term better than "control") is so impactful in these passages.  A suggestion for now in mm. 150-154 is that once you feel you're 90-100% effective walking every eighth note, switch to quarter notes.  It'll require a faster tempo (otherwise you'll likely feel physically a little off-balance) but moving to bigger rhythmic values is the next step.   In the coda, with the off-beat metronome, this is also going super well.  Again, it seems like you're doing this very effectively, so I'd suggest the next step is to turn the metronome toward a quarter-note beat (still on the off-beats).  This will require you to exert more rhythmic stability in a positive way, generating more awareness of subdivisions to stay on track.  Keep up the good work, and please join us in the live session next week!