GENERAL DISCUSSION: Bach Goldberg Variations

Gail Starr Beatrice plays this piece so wonderfully!

Juan Carlos Olite Thank you . Hope I can do it ! Looking forward to hearing the new microphone .  

Juan Carlos Olite That is such a special variation! Can't wait to hear you play it :)

Dominic Cheli Absolutely THRILLING to know that you'll be part of this group exploration of the Goldberg. You can be our metaphorical lighthouse! It's fun to be connected with a group of people who are willing to embark on a project that is still quite vague and formless, but unquestionably worthwhile. 

Dominic Cheli That YouTube recording is just wonderful! The theme alone almost brought me to tears. Thank you so much for sharing!

Dominic Cheli What a great start to my day watching/listening to your brilliant and beautiful YouTube video of the Goldberg Variations! I am so happy we will have the benefit of your expertise as we study this piece.

Dominic Cheli I spent a very enjoyable hour and a half  listening to you play the variations on you tube this morning . Thank you

Monika Tusnady Thanks for your compliment :)

mariannejhampton Thanks a lot for listening so long!!!

Susan Thanks! Indeed I hope to be able to help everyone achieve their goals with this piece!

Dominic Cheli Sorry I meant 48.17 mins !! There is also a video of you talking about the variations done in Feb this year .

Dominic Cheli Thank you for that fantastic performance! So grateful for everything you bring to this community. Very inspiring! 

Gail Starr Thank you so much Gail!!

Sindre Skarelven It is my honor Sindre! Such a pleasure to be able to connect with such wonderful people like yourself :)

mariannejhampton Yes! I had a small lecture on some variations earlier this year!

Dominic Cheli thank you very much for your performance, impresive!. Each time I see a complete performance of the Goldbergs I'm overwellming. I think is one of the bigest challenge a pianist can do.
After you learn a Bach pece, what kind of extra work you need to ensure memory at the public performance? Could you share some tips with us?
I hope this is a good topic for a future tonebase lesson!
Thank you very much for your atention Dominic

Susan 3 month challenge sounds more like it for this masterpiece!

Susan Maybe we could even keep it open longer so people can add to it as they learn more variations ? 

mariannejhampton yes - I believe even after a challenge is over you can still add to the strand later if you want to share something. Or maybe this will end up being an open ended project. 

Susan open ended sounds good to me !

mariannejhampton This is a life-long piece project for many people, so yes we will leave this thread open! 3 months isn't even enough time!

Monika Tusnady That lesson was INCREDIBLE!! I highly recommend it too!! Just her playing was out of this world, and that suite… another masterpiece by Bach!! 

Gail Starr Yes you should! I second all of the opinions above about how wonderful she is :)

Gail Starr That is so cool! I got to know her quite well this past summer at the Bravo! Vail Festival. Lots of 1 on 1 interaction and performing with her :) (4 hands and even 6 hands piano music!)

Dominic Cheli Gail Starr  You are so fortunate! Such a contact would seem life-changing!

Susan These are wonderful variations! You should work on any/all that you like :)

Gail Starr That sounds great or I can do that! It would be nice to keep track of who is working on what!

Gail Starr I would love a list . Do you have it down that I would like to play 22 if no one else wants it ? I could also do 21 if given enough time .

Gail Starr that is too funny! 

Agreed, Sindre will pick all of them instead of he and I fighting over Variation1. I would also play 2, 3, and 4, but they would not make sense without 1. 

Gail Starr LOL!! Yes, absolutely!! Thank you for boosting my confidence! (I probably need a week or two more.... ) 

Monika Tusnady You make a valid point, Monika, there simply is no musical way to jump straight from the aria to variation 2... To me variation 1 is as important as the Aria!!

Sindre Skarelven You're right about the connection between the Aria and Var. 1: we SOOOO expect that sudden burst of energy. I had thought about grouping the first four variations to set an unquestionably elegant and imaginative tone to the work from the start - something totally 21st century. 

Are you thinking about writing your own variation? This would be quite in keeping with old practice, as Dominic pointed out, but with a contemporary twist! I would have found this to be a frightening prospect before tonebase but it seems realistic now - given a lengthy reflection time, of course. (I'm still reflecting.) 

Sindre Skarelven Number 1 is fabulous, such wonderful energy! And yes I encourage you to take a look at the softer variations as well, since they have so much beauty in them :)

Gail Starr I bet he will!

Monika Tusnady I really like grouping the Aria with Variation 1-5! # 5 has a great amount of virtuosity to round off the set.

Indeed composing a variation would be intimidating in the face of this monumental work but I would like to do that one day :)

Sindre Skarelven Yes! And variation 1 isn’t too hard to learn, why not just add that in order to open the door to all of the other variations!

Monika Tusnady I'm looking very much forward to hear how you're gonna play this! I sort of feel that the words you use with 'elegance' and 'imaginative' speaks very well for what this piece is and needs in form of playing.

I have not considered writing my own variation. I will go into the work to learn more about Bach's writing and how he twist and turns this theme. When I'm finished with that I might see if I have anything to add... :)

Dominic Cheli Absolutely! I hope to create a nice blend of different moods and styles with the  variations I pick, the aria and var.1 will set it up nicely for what's to come :) 

Sindre Skarelven I am looking forward to hearing you !

mariannejhampton Thank you! I will practice this little by little along side some other projects. Looking forward to it :) 

Gail Starr That is funny, what an amazing podcast though.  I've been thinking about what a "highlights" version might look like and which variations could be picked to for an "abridged" performance that is shorter and more manageable.  At the same time I just came across a guitar tonebase lesson about the variations (someone transcribed all of the variations for classical guitar, but much of it is insanely difficult).  The variations they chose to cover in the abridged guitar lesson are 1, 2, 5, 7, 10, 21, 18 (in that exact order).  Not a bad selection for piano either so I might start with that.

Brett Gilbert Thank you for this recommendation . It’s a lot to listen to but I did listen to the one that pertained to my chosen variation ( 22 ) and found  it very interesting .

Brett Gilbert Welcome Brett! Awesome that you have already gotten your fingers into this piece! Please join us :)

Brett Gilbert That’s interesting to hear! I had no idea about guitarists transcriptions of this piece!

In regards to an abridged version of the Goldberg’s, I highly recommend looking at doing one! That would be very acceptable in historic practice. Only modern day pianists think we have to ALWAYS play all 30!

I like Aria, 1 2 3 4 5 and 30 then aria! Done that a few times

Brett Gilbert By the way you can overlap with others! Just learn your favorite ones!!!

Dominic Cheli Thanks for info about abridged performances.  I was wondering whether that was done or acceptable.  I throughly enjoyed your recording at Colburn School from a few years ago.! I wish there was a closer/overhead view of your fingers but I could see how you did use light pedaling in places.  Would be curious to know how long it took you to learn/memorize the entire piece.

Brett Gilbert thank you for putting the podcast link up. I’m excited to listen to it! :) I’m impressed you play classical guitar as well as piano. Wow. 

Brett Gilbert Thank you for the podcast-link! I will enjoy listening to that! 

Brett Gilbert Thank you Brett for the podcast! It's perfect to understand and enjoy Goldberg's world!

Brett Gilbert Hey Brett! Yes I wish there were more cameras as well back then. But If you have specific questions for pedaling or fingering/hand positioning let me know!

From opening the score to the first time I was able to perform it from memory, it took me 1 month. To get it to that level in the concert video it took 3-4 months, but I was also busy with so many other things as well!

Dominic Cheli I know it takes hard , hard work to memorize all the variations in one month but I still think it takes a genius to do that  ! 

TT2020 Amazing!!

TT2020 Sounds wonderful

Matt Thank you for sharing these recordings! I am no familiar with them, so I will definitely check them out soon! Yes, please join us!

Matt I love the recording of Jean Rondeau too. He is my favorite. Luckily he has just started a concert tour with the Goldberg variations and I’m hoping to hear him live in April in Austria

Monika Tusnady Yes I think the composite will end up being quite rewarding actually! Awesome that you are already forming ideas, I love that! Keep going!!

Juan Carlos Olite I love it! It's a great way to perform this piece!

I think you can still play var.13 if you want to play that one too (I know it's already quite a lot to learn...), but then I would probably put it between 4 and 5. I kinda like the idea of getting that slow one in there :) 

Juan Carlos Olite I also think it’s a great plan. I may do the same. 

Juan Carlos Olite I’m quite sure I will enjoy listening to all the variations you choose to master!

Sindre Skarelven Of course it's a great idea, Sindre! A lyrical moment, you're right! I'll try to do it. But, bufff... Seems like a lot of work...  But, very exciting too. 

mariannejhampton Thank you, Marianne. Do you have a personal plan for the Goldbergs?

Juan Carlos Olite I am studying the Aria plus variation no 21 and 22 , I opened my Goldberg sheet music at those particular pieces and decided that if Bach wrote them they would be good . They will stretch my abilities but I love crossword puzzles and detective stories so discovering the intricacies of these variations will be enjoyable for me . I don’t know how well I can play them but I plan to enjoy learning them ! 

mariannejhampton Of course, they are very good. I am sure you will solve Bach's beautiful riddles. I will enjoy listening them.

Juan Carlos Olite Its a great selection! I would maybe put 13 between 5 and 30. because 4 leads to strongly into 5. (Variations 1-5 have such a strong forward progression.) and then 13 is a small break before the finality of variation 30 and the aria. But experiment with the order! I know that it is alot of work, but just take your time!

Dominic Cheli Thank you Dominic for the advise. I am thinking to introduce other two variations between 13 and 30, namely 18 and 19. I know it is a big challenge and a lot of work, but..., step by step I will try to achieve it.

Monika Tusnady I support you with both the smorgasbord and no repeats !

Yes, I agree! Everyone just choose their own...smorgasbord, I love it! It keeps everyone (me included) motivated with what they want to play.

Yes, I feel that since the theme is pretty long, it will be easier for the listener to compare the variations when there is no repeats. You have my support :) 

Monika Tusnady Ok, ok, Monika. Don't worry. No repeats. I promise 

Juan Carlos Olite That is a very good promise!

Monika Tusnady Hi Monica I like both ideas! Personally I don't take repeats in my performances of this piece. It just becomes too long. I might take the repeat if something REALLY didn't go correctly the 1st time though, haha!

Monika Tusnady I loved listening to Jean Rondeau play the variations on the harpsichord . It gave me some ideas

Monika Tusnady Being able to style Bach’s music with my own phrasing , articulation etc is what makes Bach’s music so appealing to me even though it requires so much work . I think perhaps it’s a good idea to avoid  recordings too but I can’t do it just yet.

Monika Tusnady Sorry for the delay in this! But I will set up a "long term, special circumstance" community challenge for us. So that we can post like we normally do. Because this thread has become the "General discussion" thread I would say! Look for a new place to post in the next few days! And I will move any videos posted to this new area for convenience!

Sindre Skarelven good on your for making such a commitment! You have some really cute variations in that set. This weekend, I've spent hours working out the fingerings on just a couple of variations. That's all: fingerings. We'll see if I get the sound I'm hoping for...though I'll admit the process was engaging beyond description. 

Monika Tusnady I hope to create something that fits together, so I will be excited to see how this set turns out! 

Getting the fingerings down is always the best way to start. Sometimes I play around with it a little to get a feel of it before deciding on the fingerings, but usually time is best well spend to get it done right away :) 

Sindre Skarelven I’ll just say Wow ! I’m looking forward to hearing you !

mariannejhampton Sindre Skarelven Yes, we all are. I especially look forward to hearing the evolution of bits and pieces as we learn and think through the piece one variation, one little nibble at the time. It will be like spilling all the pieces of a puzzle on the table before assembling it. 

Sindre Skarelven What a superb plan, Sindre! I look forward to hearing it. 

mariannejhampton Thank you, Marianne! I look forward to hear you and everyone else's version! Let's be patient with this one :) 

Monika Tusnady You always know how to paint a picture, Monika! Looking forward to the process :) 

Juan Carlos Olite I like this plan a lot too, Juan Carlos! Excited to see how it turns out! Maybe it will be a classic ;)  

Sindre Skarelven Sounds great! Absolutely wonderful variations, you picked some of the most challenging! Let me know if you need some advice on fingerings/hand positions!

mariannejhampton Wow! Why is it that my experience is so different? I don’t remember anything at all being easy on the piano, ever! Oh, yes, of course: I am just Monika, not Bach!

Monika Tusnady 

Nothing has every been easy for me either . In fact it’s been blood , sweat and tears and still not the results I would like !

mariannejhampton Great quote! It’s like someone is asking Bach «what’s the magic and secret ingrediens behind it all» and he drops a truth-bomb like: «just play the right keys at the right time» Yup, that’s it  

Sindre Skarelven Exactly!

mariannejhampton Wow such a simple and direct way of looking at things! Of course Bach was a genius so simply hitting the keys meant that he was also doing so with absolute purpose and emotional intent.

Monika Tusnady Like anything its best to try and simplify complex problems to tackle them. Perhaps this is what Bach is doing! 

mariannejhampton Even for Bach, he worked SO hard, and it wasn't easy for him either! He never said playing the right notes at the right time was easy!! :)

mariannejhampton While doing so successfully might not be "remarkable" its still definitely hard :)

Dominic Cheli  I have a feeling that Bach was quite the joker when he made this statement ! Surely a man would need to have a sense of humor to  have 2 wives and 20 children ! 

mariannejhampton Oh it is so true that he was a joker! For example, Goldberg Variation 30 is a "quodlibet" based on multiple German folk songs. Take a look at the titles/lyrics of these songs that Bach would have sung:

("I have so long been away from you, come closer, come closer") 

("Cabbage and turnips have driven me away, had my mother cooked meat, I'd have opted to stay"). 

Quite humorous and funny!

Dominic Cheli I’ll check out those folk songs . I think he also enjoyed a good brew, got in trouble for cavorting with a young unmarried woman in a hayloft and spent a month in prison for participating in a street fight !! Just a normal genius !

It does work perfectly well. Great psychologist Milhalyi Csikszentmihalyi and wonderful book "Flow". Thank for reminding us, Monika.  I am trying everyday to show my students the necessity to look for these human activities that can lead them to the state of Flow.

Juan Carlos Olite good for you! My first week was difficult to the extreme, with ideas that seemed interesting but impossible to bring to life. No flow! It’s picking up now, but to keep things joyful, I will limit myself to only a few variations. 

Monika Tusnady I remember learning and reading some of this research in my student days. One thing I always remember, and that I think about as a piano teacher, is the importance of studying material with the right degree of difficulty. In fact, I think it was only 4% above our current level that we should take on. Meaning, if things are too difficult, it's easy to loose motivation. The only exception is if we have a strong inner drive to learn a certain piece. 

I have only looked at the piece a little bit so far, but I hope to get a sense of flow when learning it. I can report back on that later when I've gotten into it! :D 

Sindre Skarelven I am not a teacher but I do agree with setting small achievable goals especially for myself .  

Sindre Skarelven It would not be overstating the facts to say that this group has a particularly strong inner drive! 

mariannejhampton That is a very clever thing to do! 

Monika Tusnady Absolutely! I feel very driven and motivated by just being in this group! :)  

Monika Tusnady I remember first working on the Goldberg Variations and struggling with flow! It is such a massive piece that it was hard to see the "end of the tunnel" or in other words "When/how will I be able to perform this piece???"

This takes me to mariannejhampton  points. 

SMALL achievable goals with consistent, patient steps forward is CRITICAL to approaching this Mt. Everest of the repertoire. That is why I am so supportive of studying specific variations and creating small concert suites of different selections, because it can be quite successful! 

Dominic Cheli  Thank you for those words. The Goldberg Variations have been the Mount Everest of my life and I’ll admit to quite the feeling of inadequacy for never having had the time to learn them. (That’s an awfully long time!) Now I feel that I no longer need to. 
I don’t really know where to post this so I’ll just continue here: A THOUSAND THANK YOUS for the LIVESTREAM conversation around pianist health! There were so many takeaways from that session: Cold and heat; overuse resulting from what I had never thought of as the unnatural act of playing the piano; the allowances we need to make as we age .  After watching, I committed to following your advice to rest for 10 minutes after every 20 minutes of practice -  one more way to put an Apple Watch to good use! Thank you!

Monika Tusnady Awesome! SO happy that my livestream with Dr. Kleinman was of use to you! I think he is brilliant and there is a lot to learn and apply to our practicing/musical/overall lives!

Monika Tusnady What a great question, Monika.... I'm always thinking about this question. Actually the first time I performed it was when I was 13, and I had only finished memorizing it the night before. So I just closed my eyes and went head first for it.... and I had to purely rely on flow to get me through it all. What a magical feeling when the music carries you along....

mariannejhampton You have been silent for some time on Community. Just checking in with you to see how Bach is coming along, or whether you will join in the Brahms Waltzes!

Monika Tusnady I’ve been very lazy this past two weeks and took a break although I have been checking both challenge pages to see what everyone is up to ! However after reading your message I have been prompted to start practicing again ! I also saw your pic ( you’re holding a glass of wine ) so I’ve opened some white wine to ease me into practicing . 

mariannejhampton Bach takes us to the highest of heights in music! His music can be appreciated from every corner, angle and phrase. It is like seeing an architectural marvel, perfect from the foundation, to the tallest tower!

It is great that you are challenging yourself, puzzles are so good for our brains!