Bach WTC fingerings
I am revisiting some of the WTC pieces by Bach and working on revising the fingerings for more ergonomic fingerings. I am using the ABRSM edition and find the fingerings suggestion quite awkward with so many twisting of fingers like crossing 4 finger over 3 finger. It is a nightmare to work out my own fingerings. Which else editions have a more ergonomic fingerings?
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Hi Taylor! I definitely understand your frustration. Check out Perahia's fingerings in the Henle edition! You also might benefit from getting more comfortable with crossing 4 or 5 over 3; sometimes it's the only way to get a smoother legato. Happy practicing!
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Hi Taylor,
Unfortunately, the reality of playing much of Bach’s music requires less-than ergonomic fingering. It is actually quite common to run into the kind of situation you noted where you might cross 4 over 3. The edition of the WTC by Henle features fingering by Sir Andras Schiff (not Perahia- I believe Noah is thinking of the Henle edition of Beethoven sonatas). Schiff’s fingering is quite good but still contains some finger twisters. One way to help with these not-so-comfortable combinations is to try practicing scales (major or minor, it doesn’t matter) using ONLY two fingers in all possible combinations-1212, 1313, 1414, 1515, 2323, 2424, etc. but then also try 2121, 3131, etc. Best wishes!
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Timothy Oh! This idea seem quite doable.
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I would certainly endorse the Henle edition with Andras Schiff's fingerings. I have both books and while I don't always use his fingerings, I always consult them when making fingering decisions.
One caution though -- Schiff, in his later years has become a strong advocate for not using the sustaining pedal when playing Bach. George Malcolm was a major influence on him and from interviews with Schiff, it seems that Malcolm was the catalyst for Schiff's position on this issue.
I mention this because some of his fingerings would appear to be as they are in order to achieve finger legato without the assistance of the sustaining pedal. If you do use the pedal, sometimes less awkward fingerings are possible.
I personally do not adhere to Schiff's no-pedal position, about which he is not always consistent. I've seen interviews where he concedes that pedal can be used if done very judiciously. I believe his first recording of the WTC was done with some use of the pedal and I prefer it to his more recent no-pedal recording. I think works like the c#-minor Fugue from Book 1 suffer from a slavish refusal to use the pedal, even in Schiff's hands. They certainly do in mine!
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Don Allen I never think about fingering together with pedalling! This is a new world!
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In Bach editions, sometimes, I find the strange fingering a there in order to force a position change for a new phrase or make sure legato is not played. I also play organ, and there it is one of the approaches. I was working on a piece with Bach’s own fingering for his pupil, edition recovered by David Sanger, and can tell it is really a hard retraining of habits.
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Hi all,
Long time lurker and first time poster here.
A general comment. I too have struggled with awkwardness in many fingerings of Bach, but I recently have found the following perspective helpful in approaching this problem. (For any particular fingering.)
Since the non-organ keyboard works of Bach were all written for harpsichord/clavichord, which have a different finger motion pattern or technique, it is inevitable that they won't align perfectly with our fingering practice that essentially fully developed on a different instrument well after Bach was dead.
I am not an expert, quite the opposite, but what I have learned is that:
- earlier performance practice often discouraged using the thumb (although by Bach's era they did use it, mixed into their older fingering practice)
- in order to avoid clanking sounds from the harpsichord 'action' and to make notes sound more sustained, the fingers are pulled backwards into the palm rather than moving down then up to begin and end a note. If you watch a harpsichordist's hands they seem to be giving the keyboard a light "coochie coochie" tickling motion.
- they tended to jump across keys by crossing fingers like 3 and 4 and moving the hand laterally at the same time. There is almost no hand rotation (it seems), but the hand is perfectly relaxed. This is how they could play fast passages while maintaining their curled hand position. Playing with a piano-like hand technique actually slows you down.
- the harpsichord has built in articulation with each note having a quick attack snd short sustain. There is no concept of 'arm weight' because the mechanism only requires a light touch to get a full sound. Fingering those tough passages feels easier if I don't try to 'sing' them, just try to make them clearer.
- default articulation was not legato, but more of a non-legato (I have read). I find this quite helpful because I don't try to keep the keys in the down position quite as long for each note, and those fingerings become a little less awkward. (In routine sixteenth note passages for example.)
- since the harpsichord doesn't really do dynamics, expression comes from subtle shifts in articulation, holding some notes into the next one(s) for example, or subtly shifting the timing of notes. This helps me avoid a 'flat' execution when trying to mimic the principles above.
I don't try to import these principles wholesale into playing Bach at the piano, where without weight there is no sound. And jumping around like a harpsichordist can make for a pretty bumpy ride in my hands with the piano's slower attack on each note. BUT... I do find that reflecting on these little bits of information about the instrument Bach wrote for has somehow made any fingering at the piano feel less awkward.
And I am not trying to say that Bach is 'better on the harpsichord'. Just working out a practical problem for myself playing Bach at the piano.
I hope this tangent from the OP's question is ok.
If anyone is curious about this, I would recommend the YouTube channel of 'Alice M. Chuaqui Baldwin, harpsichordist', in particular the video on Early Keyboard Fingerings.
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Are you using the current ABRSM or the old Tovey edition with fingering by the (once) celebrated Bach pianist Harold Samuel? The latter are 100 years old but less mad than many. There is historical evidence that Bach used fingerings which relied on the middle finger reaching outward across the 4th finger, but no reason to do this if you don't find it comfortable. I can't imagine how you would cross the 4th finger over the 3rd, but a swift lateral movement of the whole hand could result in the 4th arriving in position to play a note inside the one the 3rd had just played, without contortions or crossings.
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I have Henle edition, but I use my own fingerings.
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I'm a little extreme when it comes to the WTC (one of my ambitions being to have played the whole thing before my time on earth expires).
I have several complete editions of both books, including the following editors:
- Bischoff
- Czerny (Schirmer editions)
- Anthony Newman ("Great Performer's Edition")
- Schiff (via Henle edition which has other notable editors as well that i consult also)
- Dover edition (not sure of the editor)
- Urtext edition (can't recall the editor)
- probably others at home that I'm forgetting about.
I try to work out the fingerings on my own, but when I get stumped or find that it seems impossible (which happens a lot!), I consult these various editions. For fingerings as well as interpretive questions, I have found the Newman comments and fingerings especially helpful, as well as Schiff. but really all of them have precious insights & suggestions.
The bottom line: fingerings have to work for your hand, and all of us are a little different. But don't give up on a recommended but awkward fingering too soon, especially if you don't have a better solution. Fingerings have to work from two perspectives (at least): Legato where needed, and speed/fluency. It's not always obvious when practicing slowly whether a fingering is going to work at faster tempos, so at some point you have to attempt the measures involved at much faster tempos, even though the piece is not ready for that, to make sure you don't get an awkward fingering locked into your muscle memory before you figure out that it won't work at the faster tempo.
If anyone wants to post comments about specific measures from WTC pieces and their fingering questions (or even better, solutions!) I'd be happy to reply with my own 2 cents. I've been through approximately 2/3 of the WTC at this point, so odds are I've wrestled with many of the same passages that others have....
Happy practicing to all!
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Peter Golemme Great support to completing your ambition!
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Taylor Ma thank you Taylor, and the same to you with working out your fingering and pieces. Let us know which WTC pieces you are working on, you may get some useful feedback, or at least some commiseration.
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I'm following up here with an actual example of where I find crossing 3 over 4 is the best choice. Measure 38 of the F Major Prelude from Book 2: The phrase is 5 notes, beginning on C# follwed by a 4 note fragment of a D minor (melodic) scale, from E up to A. The 1 is spoken for, holding down the A below. So 2 is the logical choice for the C#, but then you have four more 8th notes to play with only 3 fingers left!.
I play 4 on the E in the RH, and then 3 on the F following. I tried 3 different alternatives: (1) jump with the 2 from the C# to the E, and roll up to the 5; (2) play 3-5 up to the G and then jump with the 5 to the A; (3) 4 -5 on the E-F and then cross the 4 over the 5 to get to the G. (1) and (2) noticeably interupted the legato, and (3) seemed very awkward, almost dangerous to try at a fast speed. I eventually settled on 4 on the E, crossing over the 3 to the F and then rolling up 4-5 on the G-A. With practice, the 3 over 4 became comfortable.
It THEN dawned on me to check my other editions (I generally work from the Dover paper edition because it conveniently has all 48 in a single volume, but it has no fingerings). Newman punts on this one, leaving it blank, but both Bischoff and Czerney show the 3 crossing the 4. Schiff indicates a 4 on the E and a 4 on the G, leaving out the finger for the critical F in the middle, leaving it up to you to choose either the 3 or the 5 (my alt. version (3) above). Note that you have to keep holding the A underneath, so that it's not an option to move the hand laterally, but I do turn my wrist a little which makes crossing the 3 over easier.
Does anyone else who plays this piece have an alternate fingering that they prefer? I'd be most interested in hearing...,
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Peter Golemme It is not a given that you have to hold the initial A for the entire note value (tied into the second beat). It may be mentally "heard" to sound for that long even if it has physically been released. Many people feel that it is in some way cheating to play it "as" a long note but actually move on, leaving it to linger in the memory; but reputable styles of Bach playing have certainly included this approach. If one wishes to keep faith with the full notated value, the thumb is indeed tied down. But then there is a fourth option that is probably more practical than the three you describe. This is to play the C# EFG with successive digits, the fifth finger landing on the G, followed by the fourth crossing to the upper A. The thumb then slides easily to the B natural.
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Jeremy Stone Dear Jeremy, thank you so much for this feedback. I tried this fingering and I see that it works! And with your fingering you can even hold the A almost till the very last fraction of a second, and then lift it just as you cross the 4 over the 5, which makes the crossing much easier to do, and in truth, without losing much sonority from the A which has mostly decayed by then. I'm not sure I can switch at this point, as my fingering has been rather deeply learned and has been working well enough, but I've been experimenting with yours today.
What you are saying about not feeling compelled to adhere literally to the score makes a lot of sense. I've been watching Magdalena Stern-Baczewska Tonebase sessions on the Bach dance suites (which I highly recommend to everyone playing Bach) and she says the same thing. It's also consistent with what several others have said in their Tonebase lessons on Bach. I'm learning that there was a strong and widely shared tradition of style and playing techniques, which included the freedom to improvise, and the scores were intended as much to evoke those traditions, as they were to indicate the specific notes, and it was not considered necessary to designate note duration, among other things, with a great deal of precision.
My approach with my WTC odyssey has been, before giving myself too much freedom, I try my best to play the exact notation, just to make sure that the reason I'm choosing something different is not because I can't play it as written!
With this F Major Prelude, I AM consciously trying to hold all of those tied white notes for their entire duration, as best I can. They form chords, as I'm sure you're aware, and my sense is that the sustained chords should noticeably ring out underneath the running 8th notes, sort of like if they were played on an organ. I've not really been able to pull that off but I'm trying. I practice that by hammering on the held notes and clinging to them to the very end, with the hope that I can scale back the exagerrated touch when I've learned the piece better, and perhaps still achieve some resonance for the chords.
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Peter Golemme What a generous reply! I am so glad to have been of help. I think, above all, that trying to understand the musical sense (one vital aspect of which you describe in the last paragraph) is altogether more important than precise playing of the notes, even assuming that is possible! Experience says that nobody plays all the notes, and many play extra notes (sometimes instead).
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Oh yes I am concern with the danger of crossing 3 and 4. I am having a mild carpal tunnel syndrome. After some reading on The Complete Pianist by Roskell, I think the ergonomic fingering is so hard to apply on the WTC given that you need to hold long notes while you play other fingers. I think tonebase should do a lesson on WTC fingerings based on ergonomic fingering, or fingering without so much tension.
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Taylor,
The Roskell book is a great resource! I agree with her ideas concerning ergonomic fingering for scales and arpeggios. However, as Peter G. points out above, sometimes you can’t avoid an odd crossing, especially in highly contrapuntal music. I also have suffered with bouts of repetitive stress injury and worried about using (what felt like) odd fingering. The solution, though, is to practice in such a way wherein you do NOT exert more pressure on long notes/held keys than is necessary. If your instrument is well-regulated, it should take no more than the lightest touch to keep a long note down (less than the pressure/force you exerted to push it down in the first place). The other fingers that aren’t holding notes need to learn to be relaxed and free feeling. Some teachers recommend practicing a “press-release” technique whereby you work on pushing a key down (press) with the minimum force required, and then releasing that same key as quickly as possible. Josh Wright has a few good videos about this technique on YouTube. Other teach about the idea of learning to be “balanced” on the key, especially with weaker fingers, which involves learning the ideal spot on the key your finger must target for optimal activation of the key with least amount of pressure whilst remaining flexible and “soft” with the finger-hand-arm. If you are truly experiencing carpal tunnel injury right now, though, you may need to rest and ice your arms/hands until you can get the inflammation under control. Playing piano should NEVER involve pain. If you are experiencing pain you most likely are playing 1. too many repetitions without accompanying rest. 2. Too fast before your mind and body have genuinely learned an effortless movement. Or- 3. Using more force or tension than is necessary, again, without rest.
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Timothy I totally agree with this. I've noticed with my own playing, that when I'm concentrating on holding down notes -- as in the F Major Prelude I'm describing above-- my tendency is to lean into them and press them very hard -- which creates a lot of tension, and is totally unnecessary -- once the note's down, you're not going to squeeze any more sound out of it by pressing on it. I try to remind myself to breathe more freely and lighten up on the held notes, and it does help..
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Peter, YES! You describe the same default reaction I have to held notes plus shorter notes played in the same hand. My suspicion is that this is a universal experience since our hand was designed more for grasping than individual finger movements (hence shared tendons with fingers 3, 4, and 5). Of course we cannot change that, nor should we, but obviously we can change our natural reaction to that grasping/pressing/tension by being aware of it and constantly self-correcting. I liked that you mentioned breathing here because I feel this issue is like practicing mindful meditation. Our minds will wander, but the practiced individual notices this more quickly and refocuses the mind faster than the novice (bringing one’s attention back to the breath). If I let my attention wander while practicing difficult passages such as the one you mentioned, I naturally tense up and put too much force on the keys being held. Just becoming aware of this natural tendency helped me to dramatically free up my fingers from what initially feels like a contrapuntal knot.
