Roskell and/or Taubman?
Hello there,
first thing first:
1. I'm not trying to spark a debate on which one is better etc. absolutely not.
2. I'm just an intermediate level person that puts effort to get better.
I watched the Durso course on the Taubman approach and I must say from the little I practiced I already noticed improvements, several ah! moments, amazing stuff.
I also watched the Roskell course and also there I had ah! moments and can see the great value.
So my question is: should a learner like me choose a 'school' and remain focused on it, either Taubman or Roskell or should try to practice/integrate both?
Should I practice both and become very conscious of the feeling, movements, tensions in my body and start to make my own decision on which approach to make?
Or simply put how should I approach the study of these great teachers?
Any of you had this dilemma? if yes, what did you do at the end?
Thanks for any suggestion
edit: And in this context, I also watched Cheli webinar on Hanon, that got me a bit confused as both 'school' above do not seems to endorse particularly the Hanon method.
Any thoughts here?
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I started taking Taubman lessons in January after finishing the course here with Robert Durso. I'm really really enjoying it. This is my first time actually taking private lessons in piano; I have a masters in classical percussion.
What I got out of watching Robert Durso's course is that TA is really subtle and that I did not want to be attempting the movements without supervision. The feedback that I get from my teacher really surprises me sometimes since we're building my technique from the ground up, and the movements we did in the first month of lessons are not the same as how I'm moving now. I've had to keep adjusting things every week; not always because they were wrong, but because it was time to move on to a subtler and more sophisticated version of the gross movement. I have a lot of sensitivity and body awareness, and my lessons are going really quickly, but I'm totally convinced that I would not have gotten anywhere trying to learn from videos, even though I did think this video course was really good and had wonderful attention to detail.
Something to consider as you make your choice between Roskell and Taubman is what kind of habits you have now and how strong they are. My teacher said I'm lucky because I have far less to unlearn, and it's the unlearning that can be the most frustrating or difficult. It looks like TA asks you to do things REALLY differently from other schools of piano playing, so I don't think it's a good idea to try to mix it with Roskell's approach. You might end up building even more habits that you'd later have to unlearn. I won't call them bad habits; just ones that make it harder to perform the TA movements correctly.-
Becky Reid Thanks for the info, I agree with you, mixing the approach is not the best approach. Unfortunately there are no Taubman trained teacher around my area. Would be nice to hear what type of exercise you do with your teacher? e.g. Do they use Hanon?
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Hi Ivan.
What a great question/s. I'm retraining in the Taubman approach with a qualified Taubman-trained teacher and benefiting greatly from it. As I have a general interest in piano technique and injury prevention, I also purchased Rosekell's book and have watched the excellent videos on Tonebase.
For a while, I tried a bit of this approach and a bit of that, which didn't really work for me. In the end, I had to choose, so I decided to go down the Taubman route. Even my own teacher has said to me that whilst I'm retraining it isn't really helpful to mix and match different technical approaches whilst the body learns to get use to new movement patterns. With some distance, I can now understand why. That said, I've also studied Alexander Technique and Body Mapping which are complementary to the approach and helpful.
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Andrew McMillan Thanks for the feedback, I wish I could find a Taubman teacher in my area as well! How long it takes for you to retrain, in the Taubman approach?
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Becky Reid , Andrew McMillan and Ivan thanks for your sharing your experiences. I鈥檓 also trying to rebuild my technique from scratch since my harpsichord-based finger powered approach has resulted in recurrent injuries. I think Taubman is more or less the way to go, but I also see potential in the technique of Arrau as detailed in von Arx鈥檚 book (which is very similar). I鈥檓 trying to retool by applying these methods (as best I can without supervision) by abstaining from playing any familiar music, and practicing Donald Waxman鈥檚 Etudes and Exertudes. I鈥檓 making progress, but I鈥檓 wondering if before I go too deep I should get some help from a qualified Taubman teacher.
May I ask if either of you is taking lessons remotely by video, or in person? Taubman instructors are rare birds. Did you use the referral service on the Goldansky institute website? Very few certified instructors are identified there.
Do you think taking Taubman lessons in person would have a great advantage over taking them remotely?
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Michael
Hi Michael. I'm taking online lessons as I'm based in Australia and as there are no qualified Taubman teachers in my state.
If I could, I would take face-to-face lessons as guided touch can be useful. Still, a trained Taubman teacher will have an eagle eye and be able to help guide you in the initial stages of retraining if that is what you are looking for.
Resources to consider:
- Well Balanced Pianist website. They have some great info there, especially in relation to seat height, and they also run workshops.
- Golandsky Institute streaming service
- Taubman-focused FaceBook Groups: Dorothy Taubman and the Taubman Approach to Piano Playing (there is a good list of resources there plus videos in posts) and Piano Learning - The Essence of Technique and Musicality.
Cheers
Andrew
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Michael I was thinking the same, to find a Taubman teacher and do lesson online!
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Andrew McMillan great to know that there are teacher willing to do online lessons! May I ask you where did you find the contact? I'm seriously interested to start training on the Taubman approach!
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Through the Golandsky Institute.
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Andrew McMillan Thanks, I did it earlier! let see how it goes :)
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Ivan Andrew McMillan Michael Hi all, nice to hear of your experiences with the Taubman method. I found my Taubman teacher through the Golandsky Institute as well and I heard back from Bob Durso. I am lucky as there is a Golandsky Institute faculty right in the city where I live. I started my re-training at the end of December 2021. We started lessons on Zoom for a few months and then went to in-person. I got a lot more out of the in-person lessons as the teacher can feel how your arm is moving and have a much better view of whether you are stretching or twisting etc. My teacher also does online lessons with some of her students but they may be those who has had lessons with her in past years. However, I am sure that an experienced TA teacher can also tell whether your arm/hand movements are correct per the TA. I suggest that Ivan start some lessons online and see how he likes TA. I think the method makes a lot of sense, but it does take some time to get to how your arm/hand should feel when you are playing 'correctly'. I find that the tones that I produce now is a lot better than before. My teacher did not use any exercise books such as Hanon or Czerny, but she did start me with a couple of short pieces from Persichetti's Reflective Keyboard Studies, so as to get used to the single and double rotations. Then I moved onto a Bach 2-part invention, and am now learning Chopin Nocturne Op. 55 no. 1 in F minor. All this happened in 1 year. At times, it can be frustrating and the re-training does require quite a bit of patience as we are used to getting results faster and want to finish up a piece. The Bach 2-part invention was focused on the single and double rotations, and the Chopin Nocturne gets into the other aspects of TA - walking hand and arm, in and out and shaping, which is a key part in TA. The other thing I have to get used to is not to play with my fingers, but to use the rotation and the arm to play each note. This is one of the areas that may take a while if one is used to playing with just the fingers, and not using the entire arm to play a note. I agree with everything that Becky Reid said. She is lucky that she does not have a lot to unlearn. Hope this helps.
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Agnes Thank you a lot for your detailed response, it help me understand or expect when going thru the TA learning.
1 year! Wow, I was not expecting that long but I'm willing to try it and see how it goes.
How is your feeling, your playing after a year? Do you think have you made good progress?
I have contacted the institute and after few mails seems there is a (supervised) teacher in my area after all!
I'm in the process to contact her and organize lessons.
Let see how it goes :) -
Ivan Glad to hear that there is a supervised teacher in your area! I think it's important to find a TA teacher that the Golandsky Institute can stand behind. To clarify, it did not take me one year for me to feel comfortable with the TA re-training. I was reviewing my notes, and the first time I felt lightness in my playing and no tension was at about 9 weeks. The first few weeks was about how to 'get' to the keyboard to get yourself in the correct position to put your hands on the piano, how to 'drop' your arm/hand to play a single note, i.e., 'drop' from the elbow rather than lifting the finger and play. Then I started the Persichetti exercises and started the Bach 2-part invention after about 3 months from the start. At about 6 months, I started the Chopin Nocturne. The 2-part invention No, 6 in E major was a very good piece to learn about rotations. I think by the time when I finished learning the 2-part invention, I felt quite comfortable with playing an entire piece and felt no discomfort or tension after my practice. Anytime when you feel discomfort in any part of your body, mostly the arms, or wrists, and maybe shoulders, there is probably something that you are not doing right, and it's very important to tell the teacher about it so it can be corrected in a timely manner.
How long the re-training goes differs from person to person, but I will say expect at least 6 months or so, assuming you've had some years of playing the piano. I don't want to discourage you but at the same time want to set the right expectations. I think you will find the effort very worthwhile. I have never played scale passages with as much evenness, speed, clarity, and ease as I have now. I feel the playing is effortless and smooth. I told my teacher that all my life, I have never liked practicing, but now, I am actually looking forward to my practice!
Good luck to you, and let me know if you further questions. I'll be very happy to share my experience with you.
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Agnes Thanks for you clarification, now I know what to expect and hope to start soon.
