Week 2: Your First Check-in

Dustin Anderson Oh, I agree completely. My point was more about how Alex's teacher had said that left-hand alone was the only way to play that passage, something which I very much disagree with and find unsupported by the text. It irritates me when a teacher says, "This is the only way to do such-and-such" with no solid proof, and so I felt a need to point that out. 

Alexander Weymann said:
my piano teacher disabused me of the notion that some of the 32nd note figures in the first 12 measures can be played with the right hand. They cannot (must not)!

 Thurmond R you misunderstood. It is my fault since I tend to phrase things rather pointedly.  Dustin Anderson correctly read my comment as intending to say that my teacher wanted ME to play the fast arpeggi with the left hand, for the purpose of developing my technique, since I am using this piece as a study and am not preparing it for a concert performance. Noel Nguyen already listed several great pianists who play these figures at least partly with their right hand, very much settling the matter. 

Maria in fact, my last piano teacher did also claim that it was Chopin who said that, and I contradicted him - now I see that he might have been right, after all. I think I heard the quote attributed to Liszt either by one of his biographers or, possibly, by Heinrich Neuhaus whose book I carried around like a bible when I was a teenager and read countless times. In this day and age, it would be a matter of seconds to verify whether “The Art of Piano Playing” attributes this quote to Liszt, but it matters not; the principle expressed in it was very much valued, as historical evidence amply shows, by both Liszt and Chopin. 

Alexander Weymann Well, I think Neuhaus got it wrong, and Karol Mikuli, one of Chopin’s students, wrote it in his notes but I am trying to find you a source in French. 

Perhaps my French wife can find it for me.

I think Chopin’s compositions, lessons, and playing embody the motto and Liszt’s do not.

Larry K really? What about La legierezza, Au bord d’une source, Les jeux d’eau à la Villa d’Este, Feux follets, Ricordanza, La campanella, Waldesrauschen, Bénédiction de Dieu dans la solitude… plenty of suppleness needed, nay: demanded for these and countless other pieces by Liszt, I would posit. 

Alexander Weymann Liszt went in for gymnastics and power, the complete opposite of Chopin. 

I still haven’t recovered from the migraine Liszt gave me after attending a recital of the Transcendental Etudes back in my 20s.

I haven’t heard most of the pieces you mentioned but I detest La Campanella, in all of its pomposity.

Did Liszt change later in life? Perhaps, but most of his compositions don’t attract me. It’s strange that Liszt revered Chopin and so opposed his way of playing. 

I know this isn’t what you want to hear, sorry. If it makes you feel any better, I feel pretty much the same about Paganini and I spent a decade studying the violin.

I listen to music for the emotions it evokes. I find Liszt lacking in a way that I do not find Chopin lacking. 

And here is a reference from a book translated from the French of notes from Chopin’s students,

“General suppleness ‘Have the body supple right to the tips of the toes,’ [Chopin used to say]. 31 Franchomme/ Picquet/ Anonymous, 32 p. 39 Suppleness was his great object. He repeated, without ceasing, during the lessons: ‘easily, easily’ [facilement, facilement]. Stiffness exasperated him. Dubois/ Niecks, II, p. 182 On beginning a lesson, Chopin’s main concern was to do away with every stiffness and convulsive or cramped movement of the hand, in order to obtain the primary requisite of good playing: souplesse [suppleness] and with it independence of the fingers.Mikuli, p. 3”

— Chopin: Pianist and Teacher: As Seen by his Pupils by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger”

Larry K said:
Well, I think Neuhaus got it wrong, and Karol Mikuli, one of Chopin’s students, wrote it in his notes but I am trying to find you a source in French. 
Perhaps my French wife can find it for me.
I think Chopin’s compositions, lessons, and playing embody the motto and Liszt’s do not.

 Mikuli did write that Chopin would often say "facilement, facilement". However, Liszt's students said he would exclaim "souplesse, toujours souplesse!"

These quotes are all secondhand anyway so the concept is more important than the wording. Neither were the first person to value suppleness of the hand, wrist and arm. This is and was a fundamental element of piano playing. It is about balancing relaxation with the ability to remain dynamic in movement to adjust seamlessly to changing challenges while maintaining economy of motion / effort. It is not about any one composer's style. Suppleness is required for Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, Debussy etc. Chopin and Liszt both understood its value equally and it was a key component of their effortlessness at the piano. 

Larry K I have come to think that for most music/composers I don't think I like, that it is often the way it is played that bothers me and not the music itself (tonal music, at least). For the longest time, I didn't like Chopin (GASP!!). Then I heard Jarred Dunn play Chopin and it was beautiful. I have learned that certain pianists play Chopin more to my liking than others, so that I have become quite picky about whom I listen to. I think it may be the same with Liszt. I agree that many interpretations of Liszt seem to privilege the physical virtuosity over the musical virtuosity. Much of his music, if played with more sensitivity and less overt bravura, has a ribbon of gentleness, longing, and hopefulness flowing through it. I think the pianist who seeks to truly understand the heart of this composer and the music (and who has the requisite skill) can bring this out regardless of the amount of pomposity that may be on the surface of the music. Though I do admit it has been rare for me to hear this side of his music, I hold out hope that some of the amateur pianists here can dig deep and find the beautiful longing that is within so much of Liszt's music.

Michelle R I used to think that Chopin was boring, but I have definitely changed my mind.