Struggling with small hands

Hi! I can just about reach a nineth, so I'm really struggling in the following passage. I realise I should use some kind of rotation for the arpeggios, but they feel too extreme? Any ideas on how to practice this without stretching too much. I have been doing slow practice but it feels like it doesn't translate when I step up the tempo. The metronome marking is 147bpm. Also if you have an suggestion for fingering that would be appriciated.

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    • Kuro
    • Kuro
    • 12 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Same piece. I have a fingering for this run. but it involves my pinky on the g(bar 1) and 4th on the a-flat. Any suggestions on a better fingering? It feels clunky

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    • Ji An
    • Ji_An
    • 12 days ago
    • Reported - view

    For the RH in bar 1, try 3 (or 2) 1 2 3 4 1 4 3 2 1 2 3 1 3 4 so that you can have 3 on the first note in bar 2.

    Like 2
      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Ji A That was exactly what I was thinking also.  Let us know how that feels.

      Like 1
      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 8 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Ji An Felt a bit unatural at first, but as I practiced it this feels way smoother, so probably on the right track! Thanks!

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      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 8 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Gail Starr I'm not used to recording myself this way, but I hope it shows up good enough. I do have a higher angle of my lower arm because I was recording, other than that it shows how I'm trying to play it

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    • Gail Starr
    • Retired MBA
    • Gail_Starr
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Have you had any luck trying to “pivot” around the D (in the first car) or the C (subsequent bars)?  I can make you a tiny video of this isn’t clear.

    Like 1
      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Gail Starr I have tried but without luck. The interval feels too big I so I end up twisting and turning my wrist to compensate(Which Is the reason for asking for advice). Also because of my tiny fingers I play the white notes in the black key area wich makes it sluggish...

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    • Kuro
    • Kuro
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksItgx8HZGw This is the full piece for reference

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      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Kuro Thank you for sharing this energetic piece.  I wasn't familiar with it!

      Like 1
      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Gail Starr No problem! There are 9 of them to honor Beethoven. He's the most famous pianist of sweden, although he was more active a decade ago. He was my idol when I was a young pianist so it's a personal goal to learn these piano concerts. So Im really thankfull for this forum and your help. I will try to record myself so I can get more direct feedback

      For reference you can see one of his concerts here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRu-t7NLTjA

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    • Timothy
    • Timothy
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Hi Kuro,

    As my teacher, the GREAT Dr. Leann Osterkamp will say, any time you use the word "stretch" that should be a red flag! I have small hands too, about the same as you (I can JUST manage a tenth in my left hand, but only a ninth in my right).  When I look at the passage of arpeggios you posted, I don't see a stretch, instead, like you noted, it's a kind of rotation motion (VERY small motion) along with an in-and-out motion wherein my thumb would move "in" towards the fallboard on the G of the A7 chord, (or F# of the D chord) then my hand will start moving "out" as my next finger strikes the middle note of the arpeggio ( D or C# depending on the chord) and then "in" again for my pinky.  So you are creating a kind of swing from side to side instead of a stretch. If you lift too much via rotation, this becomes really difficult and feels less secure.  Be certain to keep your fingers close to the keys rather than rotating very high on one side of the hand or the other.  Again, the rotation should be SMALL. One way to practice this section of arpeggios would be to regroup them.  So rather than starting on the first sixteenth of each beat (measures 88 and 89), I would start on the C# and play a group that is the next four notes.  This should probably feel easier to play than playing the four-note sixteenth groupings as written.  Sometimes it helps to see what is manageable and easy and think of how to "trick" our brains into thinking of a group or passage as simple. Piano playing is 90% mental after all. Another thing to think about and help out is to look at Chopin's etude no. 1 in C major from the opus 10 set.  At first glance, I think everyone perceives this to be an impossible etude (unless you have huge hands and/or happen to be Sviatoslav Richter reincarnated). The truth is that Chopin created this etude as a way of practicing how to play largely spread arpeggios WITHOUT stretching.  See Garrick Ohlsson's video about this here on Tonebase. It was massively helpful to me in understanding how pianists like Alicia deLarocha, Vladimir Ashkenazy, or Maria Joao Pires can play pieces like this despite having VERY small hands.  Side note, I got to meet Maurizio Pollini a few years before he died.  In his prime, he was easily one of the greatest technicians of the late 20th century and early 21st century pianists. However, he was actually a very small man (about 5'5") with hands smaller than mine- he was gracious enough to let me compare our hands by holding them up to each other. His trick? Flexibility and economy of motion.  I hope some of this sets you on a good path!

    Like 4
      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Timothy Thank you for your detailed descriptions! The pianist whose work this is would be proud that you mentioned Chopin, He's all about the proper technique of piano playing, so seeing how this parallells with Chopin makes so much sense!

      Also, I love your storytelling! So engaging and uplifting!

      Like 2
      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Timothy So amazing that you got to compare hand sizes with Pollini himself!  I was lucky enough to attend his full series of Beethoven Sonatas a million years ago when I lived in Paris, but I was SO far away (super cheap seats!) I barely saw his hands at all.

      Like 1
    • Kuro
    • Kuro
    • 11 days ago
    • Reported - view

    Thank you so much! All of you. You all helped so much! I will take all your insights and work with them!

    Like 2
      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Kuro If you'd like to post a video clip of you playing these measures, maybe we could take a quick look and see if we notice anything?

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  • Beginner view point - I saw the lines above - have small hands - F to A is possible . I used 1 2 5 in the first bar on the 8th notes but found it much easier to lift 1 and pivot on 2 —- I could play the entire line without discomfort . 

    Like 1
      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter William I can play it slowly comfortably, it's at speed that I mess up. I hesitated to publish this question just because it should be pretty stratightforward, but for some reason it isn't for me.  I struggle with that economy of motion an clarity that this piece require. I use the same fingering. I do value your insight!

      Like 2
      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Kuro never hesitate to ask a question! We are here on tonebase to learn.

       

      Bot du i sverige?

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      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Gail Starr Ja, det gör jag! Bor du också här?

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      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Kuro Nej, men min syster och systerdotter bor i stockholm!  

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      • Gail Starr
      • Retired MBA
      • Gail_Starr
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Kuro Jag bor i Florida… varmare väder! 😊

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    • Kuro ah yes at max tempo 147 bpm it may be very difficult . My response was only that of a beginner .. my apologies..

      also from your link above - sounds a bit like Beethoven’s Moonlight 3rd movement - monstrously difficult at max tempo . 😂

      Like 1
      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Gail Starr Vill inte Doxxa mig själv, men bor inte långt från Stockholm själv! Intressant, då bor du typ granne med Wells! ;)

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      • Kuro
      • Kuro
      • 10 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter William all ideas and perspectives are welcome! This is piece is pretty easy to play sloppy at half speed, but it's my goal to master it, so even though I'm struggling I find it rewarding. Even more so when I can talk to others about my struggles

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