Week 1 - The Opening Pattern and Finding the Melody

Ursina Boehm glad to see you here Ursina.  I expect that it will be interesting for you to compare how you approach this now, compared to your childhood.  I looking forward to hearing what you bring to these pieces, especially after hearing your nuanced & beautifully executed versions of your Partita and that A Minor English Suite on our Bach thread!

Ursina Boehm Speaking of now vs. childhood, I found a recording of myself playing the Prelude from back in the 1970's. I basically plowed through it as fast as I could with barely a thought to phrasing or sequences or strong and weak measures or any such thing.  When I got to the Presto section I could hardly go any faster, but made up for it by not bothering to keep my hands together, with the notes clattering all over the place with no apparent relationship to each other! Hopefully here I'll be able to convince the group that I've matured somewhat in the past 50+ years....

Peter William Hello Peter.  If you keep working on your current 2 part Invention and then perhaps a few more after that, these pieces in the WTC will look a lot less intimidating to you. Just continue to be patient and concentrate on getting the notes and timing correct without worrying about speed, and you'll be fine. Dominic's explanation and analysis of this piece will also be very revealing.  

As stated in the Title Page of the WTC, Bach wrote these, among other reasons, "for the use and improvement of musical youth [sic] eager to learn".  This Prelude could be seen in part as a lesson in configuring chords and decorating the chord tones with neighboring notes while putting them through a series of harmonic changes---- something like what Baroque players probably did when improvising over a bass line. It's not as contrapuntal as your Invention and for this reason perhaps "easier" to learn, especially when you realize it's basically one chord per measure, each of them decorated in a roughly similar manner.  (apologies to all for this very Inexpert description of what is going on in the Prelude, but thinking of it this way helped me learn it years ago!)

Peter Golemme Terrific! Thank you for your note.  I had been persistently practicing the C maj invention ( slow tempo only! ) for  over 6 weeks now with a new found intention of memorizing solely ( no emphasis on reading) and didn't want to get distracted. After looking at the score and playing it I agree with you that it is a bit simpler than the invention but will  require a great deal of careful attention to learning it correctly. Once my  C maj invention is in an acceptable form of sorts I will start learning pieces of the WTC. The C maj prelude I can play but the C maj Fugue was really challenging a few months ago. I should go back to Evan Shinners great lesson on it. 

The nice thing about my way of practicing is that they are very short pieces ( 2 pages or less ) at very slow tempo so the end is definitely in sight and can be done in much smaller chunks. :-). There is another invention with a wonderful class with Prof. Magdalena Stern - I think this is all one needs to learn the inventions. In 20 minutes she basically gets a beginner through whatever is needed - the rest is slow practice with dogged determination. Small chunks are most advisable.

Peter William Yes, stick with your invention as it will boost your confidence and capabilities immeasurably when you find that you can play it to your (reasonable) satisfaction.  The C Major Fugue is very tightly packed and quite difficult to read through IMO. so don't be discouraged by that.  Also, the Inventions are not easy! After you get through your C Major, you might want to check out some of the 'easier' pieces in the beginner-intermediate level. There are some that are much simpler to learn and play (mainly because they are more homophonic than the Inventions) but still quite lovely, and the 'fun' reward of being able to play them competently might come with significantly less work than that needed for the 2 part inventions.  In the meantime, keep practicing!

Peter William said:
The nice thing about my way of practicing is that they are very short pieces ( 2 pages or less )

A 2 page Bach piece is considered by many pianists to be the equivalent work of a much longer piece from other eras  - at least to play it reasonably well. This is particularly true if it is a fugue. This is also reflected in the requirements of many different conservatory curricula. 

Do not assume short in length means it will be faster to learn, especially with Bach!

Dustin Anderson When people have asked me why I like Bach so much, my standard answer has always been "Bach has the most music per square inch of any composer."  (one of my most repeated Inexpert Observations and Proclamatory Pronouncements) There is so much more music to learn in each square inch of Bach's pieces, that yes, I agree, it takes a correspondingly much longer period of time to learn than a square inch of any other composer!

Peter Golemme Thanks again. Lots of very good points.  Yes I am focussing on smaller pieces to play from memory as much as possible. So a new goal is to learn at least 4 pieces completely in the next year or so. I have be very judicious in my choice of pieces to play to meet this goal. The inventions look do-able (There are 14 to choose from after this one) . But there are few others that I have identified as possible candidates. The C maj invention will be complete in a few weeks. Then the others start. I practiced for an hour between the earlier messaging note and this one. :-)

Dustin Anderson Yes Bach is actually quite difficult and complex!. I know from playing experience. The multiple voices interleaved - ah - that's quite difficult to figure out. But I have a nice method for the C maj invention.

 I tried the C Major fugue ! and was completely confused by how it was played until I saw a video of Richter playing it! He played what looked like treble cleff notes with the left hand ! and I didn't realize it until I saw that video - so was getting into all sorts of contortions when I tried it. lol!

Actually nothing in classical music is really fast for me .. lol! Everything is super slow but quite enjoyable and without any frustration.

Peter Golemme Dustin Anderson 

I agree about the difficulty of Bach, and the fact that difficulty does not correlate with length.

I tried the C Major Prelude years ago but never got it to a decent level even after a lot of work. 

Henle has a graded book of sixteen pieces by Bach entitled “At the Piano.” So, I bought that and worked on the first piece, which was perhaps half a page. Even after writing every finger, and working on it a lot, I was not happy with my performance. 

J.S. Bach: At The Piano - 16... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06Y3CT4XQ?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Oh, how I just want to strike a chord at the beginning of a measure instead of wandering around like Bach forces me to do.

Yes, I know I can play blocked chords to try to learn it. Still, Bach is so difficult.
 

I wouldn’t recommend Bach to a beginner. Dustin, would you? 

Larry K  regarding your comment "I tried the C maj.. after a lot of work"  can you elaborate a bit more about what aspects of that particular piece cause you to write the comment above.

1. was it just the correct memorization of the piece all notes correct etc.. ?

or

2. Something deeper like you can play it fully without the score but are not happy with the outcome as your expectation is to play it like a world class pianist?

This I am afraid is something that most hobbists should abandon for their own well being and happiness.  

Just trying to understand.. I can categorically state that playing that particular piece is not extraordinarily difficult. Playing it like a world class musician ( concert pianist ) is a whole different discussion.. :-)

Peter William Memorization had nothing to do with my difficulties. One can play well or badly from music or memory.

Memorization does not insure rhythmic accuracy.

The C major prelude is all sixteenth notes, with no rhythmic variety to anchor the player. One has to play absolutely evenly for thirty five measures, with no rests. 

Within this strict time, one has to shape the piece musically. 

It looks simple but it is not.

It is all broken chords. It has a four voice texture in which one or two voices move with each step. These movements are usually in the inner voices. It is difficult to hear these small voice changes.

I don’t usually listen to professionals when I am working on a piece. I study the music. 

I would never compare my playing to that of a professional. That way leads to madness.

I have a my own standard based on whether I can play the piece in time, with good tone, with good musical phrasing, accurately.

Back then, I  couldn’t play it up to my standard. I haven’t gone back to try again.

Larry K ok  that provides a  better context. 

So if I understood correctly you have memorized it fully, and have the rhythmic pattern ( all sixteenth notes - no change throughout) correct as well and can play it fully start to finish without halting anywhere, but you are not happy with your outcome.

You have a teacher now, so if you play it for the said teacher what is their reaction ? 

You may be surprised .. they may say you play it well.. :-).. worth a try isnt' it?

BTW for context.. I play it start to finish .. no halts, every note.. so can safely say I know this piece well. I do not compare my playing to any world level pianist on this piece. Every one of them will play it a 1000 times better in every conceivable musical aspect .. lol!

Peter William Can you play it in time with a metronome?

Maria ha very nice question! but extremely relevant. I will test it this evening and see if it is all messed up. lol! 

If you read my story on another thread - my friend taught me to play this piece in college in an afternoon. He only told me to memorize it right away all the notes. It was from a little book that stopped after the first page. Then 5 years later after grad school and 7000 miles away from my first piano teacher( math friend) I learnt the second page also memorization. Then after several decades I was told don't memorize just read the d* score by a prof ( a family friend) and soon completely lost the ability to memorize. Now after several years and lots of introspection and most importantly joining TB and seeing the wonderful players here I decided to memorize every thing in the past 2 months and only read to learn the notes. This is working well for me.

Long answer.. but the short answer my recall is that I bumped up the tempo with a metronome sometime back and didnt discover glaring problems.. but will listen very carefully at slow speeds and see if it is actually falling apart.

Another learned friend told me I was speeding up a lot in the middle of another piece - reckless .. lol!.. So am now supercareful to be  very slow on everything I am learning now ( C Maj invention is WIP). If you see me practice the second page of the Invention you will "OMG what is this  guy doing - it is so so slow.. Is he going anywhere at all ? " LOL!

I will post it and send you a link either this evening or tomorrow. :-)

Peter William No, I was never able to play it perfectly in time even after months of trying. I never had it memorized.

I blame some of my failing on the fact that my teacher skipped a lot of lessons with me. He used to come to my house but kept missing lessons. I kept offering to go to his house but he never agreed to that.

This situation proved to be demoralizing, and is what forced me to eventually find a new teacher.

My current teacher will not let me study this piece at this time. I am sure of that even though I have not asked.

She has a study plan for me which includes improving my two and three note slurs, detached playing, having me play more into the black keys, working through all of the five finger patterns chromatically, adding triads, major, minor, and diminished, etc.

This Prelude is much harder than the pieces I am working on at the moment.  I can play these easier pieces in time, with a good tone, with two and three note slurs, and detached phrases.

It is better to play a simple piece well than it is to play a difficult piece in a mediocre way.

Larry K ok that is very good perspective. Eventually we should be happy doing some activity - like playing the piano - and whatever leads to that outcome is best.

Every now and then I have to save myself from baravado :-) and have to remind myself of foolish endeavors that are to be strictly avoided - the honest method is the best method. I usually immediately admit to my foibles with music as it does not even need a test to prove otherwise LOL!.

A teacher is usually quite excellent in setting our expectations along the right path. 

Maria 

ok Maria to your question. I had not played the prelude for several months I think but took out my book just an hour ago and read it about 4 times with a metronome at differing speeds. Here is the last version ( 5th reading ). Please hack at it all you want .. no offense taken.  Danke !

https://youtu.be/kql0-s9gwzE

Larry K 

I wouldn’t recommend Bach to a beginner. Dustin, would you? 

Well there are some junior level Bach pieces that do fall in the mid to late beginner range, but for the typical learning pace it is safe to say a teacher is not introducing inventions, sinfonias or fugues to the average student until they have about 7-8 + years of piano experience.

Beginner students will typically learn inventions by pedagogical composers (composers that write music with a specific type of learner in mind) that are intended for early learners to experience counterpoint at a level that can be processed meaningfully and achieve performance level in several months. Many intermediate pianists still find that an 'easy' tier invention is challenging to execute convincingly.

Bach two-part inventions are in the late intermediate area of learning, the sinfonias are in the early advanced area and fugues are in the advanced area. There are a few small exceptions here and there such as the C minor Prelude and Fugue that is being worked on in this 4-week challenge (considered to be more early advanced and therefore a good 'my first prelude and fugue'). Even the two-part inventions require a number of technical skills such as confidently controlling dynamic levels in each hand, rendering clear and consistent articulation, and applying horizontal shaping / phrasing. A student learning a two-part invention also needs to be able to recognize motives, understand form and structure, realize ornamentation, and hopefully have at least a small amount harmony knowledge so they can identify cadences, sequences and key areas. 

A person can certainly work on a harder piece without having built up this foundation in simpler pieces but they will spend significantly more time working on it and they are unlikely to give a 'convincing' performance that is stylistically and musically informed. Some learners do not necessarily strive for this though as they may be content with just exploring the music and being able to 'sketch' it out. This tends to be at odds with teachers whose primary aim is to help students play in a convincing and informed manner. It also creates an ethical dilemma for serious teachers who feel that if you are paying for private education / training, it is their professional responsibility to elevate your playing beyond just explorative sketching.

... But yes, the short answer is Bach is not really associated with beginner piano haha.

Peter William Hi Peter. I listened to your link and you do seem to have a strong note security. Since you keep asking for feedback, I will give a few ideas for you to consider. This is essentially the feedback that I would give to a student if they performed this at a music festival or masterclass session:

You are playing quite fast! This prelude is often presented a bit more slowly and serenely, like gently flowing water through an unfurling landscape. While tempo choices are certainly variable, you may want to try this as you currently sound a little frantic in your sixteenth notes. On that point, you are playing with a metronome but not playing with the metronome; your own playing and the metronome are operating somewhat independently. It seems you may not hear that you are out sync with the metronome?

While ticking the subdivisions can be helpful at slower tempi for learning a piece, given your note security you would benefit from only ticking the 4/4 beat. Playing to the subdivisions leads to very stiff, mechanical playing with each note unintentionally receiving equal attack. It can also paradoxically lead to less rhythmic precision as you try to monitor all the micro-pulsing at a rate that exceeds your ability to react. Listen carefully to the unintentional bunching up or dragging of your figures that occur throughout.  

To elevate your initial work on this piece, I would also advise exploring some dynamic variety and possible agogic timings to highlight different harmonies. Bach often subverts the harmonic expectations in this style of writing and really drags out the dominant's eventual resolution to the tonic. The magic in the writing is in the little harmonic 'detours' / false resolutions that he uses, so it is necessary to accentuate the harmonic shading to give the piece more dimension.

The final few bars switch to a more fantasie-like figuration and are often played with some slowing down to guide the listener to the arrival of the final chord, like we are bringing them in for a musical landing =). If you really want to continue to play very rhythmically right up to the end, you will have to consider how you will make sense of the final chord in a way that doesn't feel like the music just hits a block chord wall.

Although I do disagree with some of your approaches and assertions in other posts, I do greatly respect your willingness to present your playing honestly and to leave it open for feedback. This can be hard in a lesson, let alone in a public forum, so thank you for sharing your playing and letting others share in the advice.  

Dustin Anderson Totally appreciate the really candid and superbly accurate feedback!. This is exactly what makes Tonebase a wonderful place to be at. Any of the maestros ( There are so many here) can listen for a minute or two and spot 20 items to improve on. So Thank you!.

I have learned the notes of this piece almost completely but have not reached any decent sense of musicality - as is completely evident to a teacher like yourself. :-) 

No excuses!. just some context to what I was trying to do.

Some of the items I noticed on reviewing a few minutes after posting.

1. The recording was with the metronome at 98bpm. I played at 60, 72 to 98.

Each 16 th note was attempted to 1 tick. 4 ticks since the metronome uses 4 ticks to each beat. So every 16th note falls on a small tick.

It definitely fell apart right nearing the beginning of the second page or maybe even earlier. 

2. There were outright mistakes in at least two places where I looked up from the keyboard :-) to glance at the score. So these need to be ironed out a bit more carefully. :-). I know exactly where they occur.

3. I didn't pay any attention to dynamics ( like places where it should be pp or f) so this can be rolled in on subsequent tries.

4. My preference is to play at around 72 -it is a bit slower but gets more accurate without the super rushed and hasty feeling at higher tempos.

5. The ending has always been a slightly murky mess for me. Now I will put some extra time into just looking at how the ending is done correctly. Maybe a great recording ( need to study this piece from Sir Andras Schiff's YT of the whole WTC- and play to that for a few hours ).

The good part is that the learning all notes is over for me as I was able to recall most of it after not playing it for a few months!. But like you said that is just entry tickets (notes and rhythm.. lol.. )The real work starts now.

I suppose I could use the same approach for the C maj invention experiment that is ongoing for nearly a month and half now. There the notes are not even fully learned yet. !

In the next post in a few days I will link in a recording after 2 hours of proper practice with your points duly considered and addressed hopefully. 

Thank you again ! for listening and all the valuable advice. 

Peter William I use the Pro Metronome app on my iPhone. Besides setting which beats to sound, it also allows for playing a tick in a measure and then playing silently for any number of measures.

This is a good way of testing whether you have the pulse in your head. 
 

I agree that it is not a good idea to always play against the smallest subdivision.
 

You started strong but I thought you seemed to depart from the metronome at 0:49, perhaps earlier. And, yes, it is too fast.

You should feel a strong sense that the note and the metronome tick are synchronized.

Thanks for posting the recording. It takes courage to do that. Perhaps I will find the courage to post a recording of a piece after my teacher has given it a pass.

Larry K "You started..  .. earlier" 

yes correct.

It was a very quick - 6 runs at differing speeds and then posted the last one. All in all it may have taken less than 20 mins..!  So lots of room for improvement.

But a little more practice on the weekend should resolve the notes and rhythm issues quickly.

It always helps when someone else is listening .. they can just say " oops there the beat is gone " leading to quick tries. :-)..

I have to listen to the iPad recording and know immediately on the playback but whilst playing there are so many notes that it is hard to tell right away!..

But good catch anyways!

I am going to post a better one very soon.