Anyone like to improvise?

Ken Radford great job Ken! I can see that we are basically on the same page , I’m excited to press on with our project …

Ken Radford sorry for late reply Ken,  ( Issues with TB forum sorted ….)

no you didn’t dream it , and you correctly emphasised that the guide tones define the character of a chord 

onto to D minor !!

Just saw this page.. so apologies if I missed all the posts. 

Ken Radford Thank you!. This video is what I need to figure out carefully. I saw that you were using some chord sequences ( cadences? i-IV-V-1 plagial.. but you did a another one.) . I assume there are lots of others) but you are able to hear the chord and identify it instantly as dim, aug .  I need to learn harmonic analysis almost immediately.   

2 questions.

1. do you know of the best compact book that clearly states all of this ?  

2. did you train your ear with exercises on identifying the chords instantly and the voicings - whether the 3rd or the fifth stands out etc.?

3. I assume you look at a score of Beethoven for example ( where there are very dense pages with notes ) and quickly identify the bass line as these chords in the key in which the score and then it is a lot easier to read through the score. ? I saw a  Music Prof. do this in real time(YT) .. not having seen the score and it was astonishing. !  Thank you again.

Peter William said:
chord sequences ( cadences? i-IV-V-1 plagial..

Just to clarify some of the terms you are using / wondering about:

I-IV-V-I / i-iv-V-i etc. are chord progressions (sometimes called chord rotations when they just loop over and over).

Sequence is a word that means something very important in musical structure and in harmony. If you say 'chord sequence', you are referring to a specific concept in harmony so it can be confusing to use it when talking about chord progressions in general.

A cadence is a 'musical ending' to a phrase / chord progression. A cadence only consists of two chords (I-V, IV-V, V-I, vii°6-I, V-vi etc.). They have names like the plagal you mentioned (plagal is IV-I / iv-i). Cadences conclude a chord progression but are not progressions themselves as they are specifically an ending to something. 

Roman numerals are capitalized for major or augmented chords. They are lower case for minor / diminished chords. They are called functional chord symbols.

=)

Dustin Anderson Thanks a lot.. I really only read it in a text recently so claim to be no expert on it at all.! Just think it may be important to learn. I will refer you to  Leonard Bernstein - the great conductor - whose 5 min. video explains western classical music to a person who has not gone to school for music. I think you may have seen it already , if not let me know and I will send you the link.

Since I found the link I am including it I think he was lecturing at Harvard..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2zubHcER4&list=PLRZHgE7pFhWfeFSVGjN8kX0Xfy7KbZO7Z

Ken Radford Thanks Ken! No rush at all. 

Peter William It is a colourful summary of how the music of the Common Practice Period—and its focus on tertiary harmony—developed, as well as the significance of the circle of fifths!

I do feel that it suggests that the European system of harmony was something that exists 'in nature' and was 'discovered'. While overtones do exist, our tuning system (and therefore the intervals and chords of our harmonic system) are mathematically distorted for equal temperament. Much of the circle of fifths potency comes from equal temperament. So what he describes was not so much discovered as it was constructed, like a language with its own vocabulary, grammar, and syntax.  

Dustin Anderson what is a good reference text for harmony in piano ? perhaps something that a piano performance major in the US would take at Freshman level before going to Masters and a Doctorate.

Dustin Anderson had you seen this video of Bernstein before ? just to know if it is widely used.. ( no other intent in the question ).. I am trying to get a location on all his other lectures.. there are some by Glenn Gould as well I think.. 

Dustin Anderson when I first saw that lecture a few years ago ( the 5min. explanation) I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about - but sat on my chair for a few minutes and thought there is enormous structure here, just like architecture or physics or mathematics and then decided I have to learn this. My playing was limited to perhaps just the C major scale and maybe 1 song with great difficulty.. So theory of music and structure can bring the uninitiated a long way! I think  ( look at my example )  :-)

Peter William There are several harmony textbooks that are used regularly by undergraduate programs in North America but Tonal Harmony by Kostka/Payne is a pretty safe bet. I believe the 9th edition is the most current one. Keep in mind that these textbooks assume you have a firm grasp of music rudiments (scales, intervals, meter, chord construction, transposition etc.). They are also designed for courses with instructors and not necessarily for self-study.

I do not recall having seen the video of Bernstein you linked before but it's possible. I'm not sure what you mean by "widely used". Wildly used by whom or for what? If you mean popular, the video has 5 million views. If you mean used by musicologists or pedagogues as some sort of seminal moment in understanding western music, then no. They are entertaining and provocative in a way that stimulates further inquiry and discussion though!

Dustin Anderson Awesome! on para 1.. The reference is what I was looking for. I have filled in some gaps with some texts and videos. We haven't talked in person. I know you are a very experienced pianist -running a studio with a Masters from  Univ. of Victoria.. hence thought of asking you. :-)

Para 2 content .. was just for my info if Profs. use it at all.. ? Yes there are 5 mil. views and in my opinion it is well deserved!. It got me started a few years ago of trying to figure out what looked like magic !.. lol!

I remember a Business school Prof(friend ) asking me a few months ago in a car ride  " in Classical music how does some bar follow the next one .. how do the composers know what comes next?" and by then I had some idea of Music theory so told him

" There are these things - 3 notes each typically called Chords and with the idea of tension of resolution ..These chords can occur in sequence with the notion that if there is tension it needs to be resolved..so I,IV,V and most likely back to I.. This is sort of a very simplistic and elementary view.. There are very complex structures that are possible.  Of course please consult your music school Profs or teachers and they will open a whole set of doors leading to complex rooms in music. But the key point is that music is not random ( at least mostly ) "

at which point we went on to talk about other topics. 

Any mis statements are solely mine and should be promptly ignored and would be valid proof of my hobbyist knowledge of music only - and everyone is encouraged to go to proper Music Teachers at all stages of their journey. 

Ken Radford Terrific Answers!..  Wow! on 1. This seems extremely difficult to me. But I am going to try. A few months ago I came across a wonderful channel (YT) of a Canadian PhD who went through the entire RCM course, then Undergrad, then Masters and PhD and she had these "identify the chords section" for multiple RCM levels and I felt that this was a super power that some people had .. lol!. 
But you have it now ! and I just wanted to know whether this was even possible. Practice, Practice is what you mentioned.  

on 2.  I don't memorize at all - can only read whatever I can and it seems a bit better than 2 years ago.. with whatever I  have done..  Memorization should be done immediately is what I have been advised .. so am trying it over the past few days but it is very slow..It took me an hour to even get the first 2 repeated bars of the Chopin C# Minor Nocturne ( noting the rests carefully and keeping the continuity of music ) upto the start of the 5th and 6th bar. .. so this will take long !.. 

If you can take a peek at the Beethoven Sonata 7 D maj ( aka Op 10 3 )

second movement and apply your analysis to the first line it  would be wonderful.  The second movement is in F maj which is the sub dominant of the D maj ( I think ?) and so with your method the first line should really be a piece of cake.. Since in my mind you will identify the monstrous notes as chords and breeze through it carefully keeping  6/8 count.  Happy to send the score.. It will take me a lot longer since I was just reading the notes.. :-) . No worries if you'd rather not. I will carefully map the chords sometime in the next 2 weeks.. 

Happy to discuss some channels which you may find completely understandable knowing what you have demonstrated. Ping yes if you are interested.. 

Thanks again! for taking the time to explain everything so clearly.

Peter William 

Peter William said:
The second movement is in F maj which is the sub dominant of the D maj ( I think ?)

The second movement is in D minor - which is the parallel minor (a common key shift. He does the same in Op. 28 for example). The subdominant of D is G not F. So if it was F major it would be a mediant relationship (by a 3rd) which was a relationship more commonly exploited in the Romantic era. That is not the case here but I mention it because Beethoven does use mediant relationships in later works. In this case he's just literally moving the home key to minor. At some point, minor key works almost always move to their relative major, so a portion of this movement is eventually in F major.