Anyone like to improvise?
Hi. I have always had a desire to be able to sit at the piano and just play - without knowing what I will play. It seems to be a daunting task, but since I found a great teacher who was classically trained before becoming a professional jazz pianist, I have made some progress. When I don’t feel like practicing I sit at the piano and play a simple chord sequence - for example Fm7, Bbm7, Cm7, Fm7 - and find notes and phrases that sound good to me.
Does anyone else improvise or plan to learn how to? It would be good to share ideas.
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After looking through some of the partimenti.org web pages that Maria kindly posted and watching the tonebase interview with John Mortensen I decided that I have to learn how to improvise fugue. I bought John’s book Improvising Fugue - A Method for Keyboard Artists and am currently practicing simple rule of the octave (RO) in seven major and parallel minor keys. I will not move on until I can play them all at a decent tempo without any errors.
I am doing this in addition to learning jazz improv and I have set a goal to be proficient in fugue by June 9th 2032 (yes, that is 6 years.)Any ideas, suggestions, tips, and so on will be appreciated.
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And here we are with month 3 of the 12 month Major II-V-I-VI and minor ii-v-i challenge travelling anticlockwise round the circle of fifths. This time round I introduce some triad pairs and as always, keep it simple.
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fantastic video Ken , lots to learn here , loved those triad pairs
is there a particular rationale for choosing those particular triads ? They sounded great
the F and B over F dominant is particularly interesting, the B is the tritone sub I suppose
btw good luck with the fugue improv, not sure I’ll be treading there anytime soon!!
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Thanks for your comments Mark. I will say more about triad pairs soon.
Learning fugue improv is a hard job that someone has to do. If it was good enough for JSB...
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I just realized that these triad pairs are probably similar in principle to the upper structure triads I discussed in an earlier video
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Good point about the similarities between the triad pairs (TPs) and the upper structure triads (USTs). I am glad you made this observation because I didn’t pick up on your comments about USTs in your F Major video, and it is definitely something I will be learning to use in my improv.
My understanding is that USTs are used mainly with dominant chords, whereas TPs can be used with all types of chords. Is it also the case that USTs are considered to be chord extensions (harmony) whereas PTs are used to create melodic lines (motifs)? I will have a go at creating motifs with USTs and see what transpires.
There are many TPs that can be used to create interesting motifs, and the ones I use as my “go-to” are as follows (using II-V-I-VI in Bb major):
Over the II chord (Cm7) - I treat this as chord II in Bb major and build a PT using the I and II tones in the Bb Major scale. This gives us Bb major and C minor.
Over the V chord (F9) - I treat this as chord IV and V of C JMM. This gives us F major and G major.
Over the V chord with a # or b9 we have a choice of two TPs. The first is built by treating it as chord I and V of F diminished. This gives us F major or minor and B major or minor. The second TP s built by treating it as chord III and VII of F diminished. This gives us Ab major or minor and D major or minor. I normally use the major chords
Over the I chord (Bb major 7) - I treat this as chord V and VI of Bb major. This gives us F major and G minor.
Over the VI chord (G+7#9) - I treat this as chord IV and V of Ab JMM. This gives us Db major and Eb major.
Using the Bb major II-V-I-VI and comparing the five main USTs with TPs:
UST II major (G major over F7) gives us F7(#11add13)
UST bIII major (Ab major over F7 gives us F7(#9)
UST bV major (B major over F7 gives us F7(b9#11)
UST bVI major (Db major over F7 gives us F7(#9b13)
UST VI major (D major over F7 gives us F13(b9)
With the two TPs mentioned above over the V chord in the Bb major II-V-I-VI with # or b 9 we have F major or minor and B major or minor and Ab major or minor and D major or minor.
F major over F7 gives us, well, F7.
F minor over F7 gives us F7(#9), which is the same as UST bIII.
B major over F7 gives us F7(b9#11), which is the same as UST bV.
B minor over F7 gives us F7(#11add13), which is the same as UST II.
Ab major over F7 gives us F7(#9), which is the same as UST bIII.
Ab minor over F7 gives us F7(#9#11)
D major over F7 gives us F13(b9), which is the same as UST VI.
D minor over F7 gives us F7(add 13).
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the connection between USTs and PTs, along with any other comments or corrections.
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Wow Ken, this will require some study , you put in a huge amount of work here , thanks !!
as far as I understand it now , UST are essentially used in a chord progression whereas the triad pairs are use repeatedly in patterns but the principle of their formation is the same
I had a lesson today with my jazz piano teacher and I mentioned that we were studying this topic of triad pairs and he came up with the following
1. it’s probably a bit trite but he said you can essentially play any triad you want as long as it sounds good , which is subjective
2. the triads sound better in first and second inversion rather then the root
3. triad pairs are often practiced by single line instruments such as saxophone as this a good way of outlining chords . No doubt you know that John Coltrane obsessed over these and created an entire language based on this concept
the improv possibilities are endless….
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I am fascinated by the mathematics that underlie music and discovering connections between musical constructs is right up my street! Thanks for mentioning the link between USTs and PTs.
1. I agree that we can play any chord we like as long as it sounds good to us. I am reminded of the way I used to wince over the leading tone in JMM scales. I am used to that sound now and no longer wince when I hear it.
2. When I use PTs I mix it up with, for example, 5, 3, 1, 5 and variations thereof. So, over A+7#9 (PTs Eb and F major) I might play Bb, G, Eb, Bb, C, A, F, C.
3. Funny you should mention John Coltrane as I am working on an exercise where I play the three scales he uses in his masterpiece Giant Steps. As you can see from the image below, I am starting with keeping it simple by playing the scales ascending and descending. When I have this under my fingers I shall attempt some improv.
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Good luck with Giant steps !
I had a look at this one a few years ago , definitely challenging !
if you also want something similar check out Coltrane’s ‘moments notice ‘ , I think this tune is even more challenging than giant steps !
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Hi all
here is my take on Bb 2-5-1-6
just to recap
the progression is:
C minor 7
F dominant
Bb major 7
G altered dominant
I include a sample tune Perdido which was composed by the trombone player in Duke Ellington’s band, Juan Tizol , in around 1941
B-flat major
2-5-1-6 progression
Sample tune. Perdido
https://youtu.be/QCUaNw4CQOo?si=ZXF9tccf8_a085-L
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Hi all
We continue our journey Gminor which is relative minor of Bb major
G minor 2-5-1
Sample tune : Autumn leaves
this tune is commonly played in this key
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I have been having a go at Autumn Leaves for a couple of hours and this is what I have so far.
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wow Ken , this was great , really nice modern feel , I loved those quartal left hand voicings
it’s a bit of an ask , but if you have the time and inclination , it would be great if you could give a brief outline of some of those voicings
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Thanks Mark. Always happy to share.
There will be another 16 bars coming soon…
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thank you Ken !! Much appreciated 🙏
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really interesting voicings
I like the quartal voicing for the Cm7
the amb5 voicing is cool , it has the b natural which fits nicely into the Locrian sharp 2 scale
and nice compact voicing for the Dalt7 and Gminor69
did you come up with these yourself?
I notice that your style is quite modern, is this your choice , has your teacher had any influence here?
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Thanks for your comments Mark. I nicked/leveraged voicings from one of my teacher’s arrangements. To be clear - I have one live teacher who has more than one arrangement of Autumn Leaves :) I will record some of one of his other arrangements and perhaps you can comment on whether it sounds modern to you.
Interesting to be discussing the modernness of voicings - I hadn’t thought about that before.
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ok fair enough
I would say that for example, the use of a quartal voicing (perfect 4ths) for the Cmin7 chord is definitely a modern approach, as used by more contemporary players such as Mycoy Tyner and Herbie Hancock and not seen in earlier periods
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Hi Mark. I feel that the time has come to for me to leave tonebase. I want to continue our 12-month challenge as I am learning a lot from the experience, and hope we can find a way to connect. Happy to have a private conversation on why I’m leaving...
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sorry to hear this Ken
yes absolutely we can continue to connect
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Take care Ken and all the best with your fugue goals and ongoing improv. =)
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