I feel so frustrated every time I practice a new piece by Bach

How do you decide which notes to be played more staccato and which notes to be played more detached, or even legato?

I always have the thought that Bach should be played staccato. Am I wrong? But in WTC, most of the time you need to hold one note while playing 16th notes. That's most my frustration and confusion come. 

Does it have like a general rule of thumbs to play Bach? I think this is what other pianist called touching? Or articulation? 

btw I am learning BWV 862.

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    • Taylor Ma
    • Taylor_Ma
    • 4 mths ago
    • Reported - view

    I found it the commentary of the piece BWV862. For the prelude, the quavers a not-too-dry staccato; the semiquavers a good vocal legato coloratura. Any idea about legato coloratura?

    Reply Like
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Taylor Ma Hi Taylor, there is a nice performance of your Ab Prelude & Fugue by  Juan Carlos Olite on our Bach thread that you ought to check out: I believe that this link will take you to it: https://youtu.be/G81xGV1pUCY

      Reply Like
  • Hi, it is a question that my students always ask.  My thought on it is to follow a general rule of thumb and play the fastest notes more connected and the slower notes more detached.  In this case the 16th notes would be more legato and the 8th notes more staccato or detached.  You can start from there and then adjust your touch accordingly, meaning looking at the phrases, interpretation, etc.  One thing to keep in mind is to remember that the WTC was written for clavichord or harpsichord.  It is very difficult to play legato in those instruments.  Legato was mostly achieved by finger overlap (holding one key slightly longer while pressing the next key to create a smooth connection), finger substitution, ornamentation, all of that was to give the illusion of connected phrasing.    

    Reply Like 1
  • - listen to different Pianist

    - try different, options and carefully listen to Your own playing. What do You like best, and why.

    - Variate You playing. Try different option on similar parts of the piece.

    - Listen to pieces played on a Harpsichord. Do You want to sound, like a Harpsichord, is this even possible. Maybe, a bit of imitation is possible, once in while.     

    Reply Like 2
    • Timothy
    • Timothy
    • 4 mths ago
    • Reported - view

    There’s a LOT more to Bach articulation than staccato and legato. I would agree with about starting with faster note values played legato and longer note values played staccato. However, in Bach’s time, composers were concerned with music imitating human speech and therefore rhetoric was the model for composition and performance (it was in the 19th century primarily, that keyboard players began to focus on “singing”. The harpsichord and clavichord are nearly impossible to play with a true legato- though some argue you can’t play true legato on modern pianos. Harpsichord players usually create the illusion of accents, legato, etc. via agogics and modern pianists should incorporate those agogics in their performance practice too. There is evidence that Bach intended some of the pieces in the WTC to be performed on the organ which CAN produce a true legato thanks to finger substitutions but those preludes and fugues are the exception not the rule. Getting back to your question , I would practice the rhythms of given phrases in a way where you can speak them. Try finding words that fit the rhythms (even if it is just nonsense) and then consider what the points of emphasis are as well as breath.  Further, consider gradations between staccato, legato, marcato, portato, etc. As long as you obey Bach’s phrasing (if and when he marks it), and work within that, you can’t really go wrong. Additionally, you may want to look at his music for violin for how it is bowed, and music for wind instruments like the oboe or recorder for when Bach allows for breathing. Some of the WTC preludes and fugues copy styles of violin, wind instrument, or vocal music. There’s an exceptional book about the WTC by David Ledbetter that is really worth looking at for more information like this.

    Reply Like 3
    • Andreu
    • Andreu.1
    • 4 mths ago
    • Reported - view

    Pianos are not made for frustration.  But for fun !!!.  Why do you play someone else's music if it makes you feel bad?  Play your music, and you will not be frustrated.  It´s a lot of fun. We all deserve to enjoy life; the piano is a great tool to feel deep emotions and have fun.

    Reply Like
  • Hi Taylor,

      I totally understand the frustration / confusion behind this post.  Baroque performance practices are big questions with a lot of variation in opinion that ranges from general stylistic features (simplified) to deeply musicological ones that take into consideration contemporary instruments, dance form conventions and even the different musical treatises of musicians from the time (often talking about instruments other than keyboard).

      On the general level, most students are first taught some slight variation on the following articulation ideas:

    • Steps and skips (particularly when outlining a chord) are often played more smoothly though you can choose to detach them to create variation / personal interpretation.  Leaps, especially large ones, are typically separated with a detached touch.
    • Faster moving notes are often played more smoothly versus the slower moving note values which are often played more detached to make the multiple layers / voices more clear and contrasted.
    • Other common places to detach are syncopations, tied notes that are long and between sequence groups.

      This is a good place to start as it is not too overwhelming and also gets you listening a bit more carefully for when this is being observed or not. As with any general guidelines, they run the danger of being considered universal truths.  They also don't mention that different levels of legato and different lengths of detached are possible. They also completely overlook the more complicated concept of agogic accents which were commonly used to help delineate structure / phrasing. 

      If you are interested in the more deep end side of Baroque performances practices you may want to consider checking out the book “Playing Bach on the Keyboard: A Practical Guide” by Richard Troeger.  It is much more in depth (but still fairly concise far as this type of resource goes) yet it is very readable / approachable.  There is also “Interpreting Bach at the Keyboard” by Paul Badura-Skoda, but this book can be quite expensive to get (though you could see about getting it via local library). 

      Hopefully that helps answer your question a bit and get you started on this huge subject with some encouragement rather than it feeling daunting. It is of course always a good idea to listen to different performers and note what different things they do that you like. In the end, no matter who you are and how carefully your choices were made, there will always be some people that love it and some that feel they would have made completely different decisions (which is a big part of why this music is still so captivating hundreds of years later).

    Reply Like 1
    • Peter Golemme
    • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
    • Peter_G
    • 4 mths ago
    • Reported - view

    There is so much excellent advice in this thread! Very illuminating to me. Let me offer something from the perspective of a largely untrained musician working his way through the WTC for many years: 

    I start by trying to play the pieces in a way that sounds good to me. I generally have 2 main conscious objectives: letting the counterpoint be heard, and letting an extended melodic line (when featured in a piece) sing.

    And all along the way, I listen to performances - I have approx. 20 plus CD sets of great pianists playing the WTC, and I also find much to learn from listening to less accomplished pianists (including fellow amateurs/students,  and even recordings of myself) working through these pieces. Often I find myself unconsciously trying to mimic the things I like best from other players, usually because they serve my 2 objectives above better than whatever i've been trying.

    Taking that approach for years, with lots of trial and error, what I'm finding is that many of the principles enumerated by Derek and Timothy and Silvana have more or less emerged on their own as the best solutions for bringing out what is in the music. I would argue that that's how they arose as guidelines in the first place!

    It can be very inhibiting and intimidating to try to incorporate all these principles as 'rules' to implement while learning a piece, So I say start by trying to make it sound good to yourself! Some healthy trial and error is also essential, I believe, to help you clarify your objectives and what does or does not work. Then consider all of the points raised above as providing possible solutions to a particular situation.  

    Then please share your efforts with us by posting some performances! a good place to do so would be the Bach thread set up by Juan Carlos Orlite (I find it in the 'Practice Diary' section of the Tonebase forums).  Lots of us have posted there already.  (and yes, I'm secretly hoping I can steal some ideas from you! especially given the obvious amount of thought and effort you are putting into it).  Good luck and thanks to those posting here for some great points.

    Reply Like 2
  • This is such a great topic. I just started to learn my first piece from WTC, G major BWV884. I am having such a hard time learning it. My progress is painfully slow. I am not even at the stage of working on articulation yet. Thank you for sharing all the tips and insight. I will for sure check out the other Bach thread. I wonder if there is any practical advises on practicing the WTC for someone just starting. I tried working on small section (1-2 bars at a time). What is the best edition for fingering? I keep changing my mind because I can't decide what is the easiest for me. 

    Reply Like 1
    • rebecca LAM Hi Rebecca, 

      I'm not sure that there is ever a best edition for fingering Bach's music as fingering choices are going to also depend on articulation choices (what will work with one articulation will not necessarily work with another, especially in a fugue with multiple voices). I find that Henle's edition with Andras Schiff's fingerings though are pretty popular.  But again, it is important to remember that you do not get markings to show how he articulates it!  You could also go with a more student oriented edition like those published by Alfred as they include suggested articulation ideas and fingering that aligns with those suggestions.  These can be nice baselines to start from for those learning their first WTC pieces.  Finally, your teacher (assuming you have one) would likely be an excellent place to get additional advice specific to you. If you do not have one, then the above suggestions combined with listening to some of your preferred performances would give you a framework to build on.

      Reply Like 1
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      rebecca LAM Inevitably you're going to find places where you need some awkward fingering solutions -- such as playing multiple adjacent notes with the same finger or crossing 3 over 4 --  in order to get through any WTC Fugue. Bach won't sacrifice his melodic lines for the sake of convenient fingering --although it seems like several of these pieces are intended to teach good hand shapes and positions, among their many other attributes.

      My approach is to try to work the fingering out myself first, and then to consult my editions for alternatives if I'm still having trouble (I have 6 different editions!). I've also posted specific questions on Tonebase and received helpful solutions from other players, and also have asked Dominic for suggestions in his technical forums on a couple of passages. 

      You've also got to make sure your solutions work at the tempo you ultimately want to achieve, which can be tricky to figure out in the early stages when you are not yet up to speed.   I tend to break those measures out and learn to play them fast to see whether the fingering is impossible at the faster tempo.

      Bottom line:  You'r not alone if you cannot find any convenient or smooth solution to a particular passage.  It's part of what the WTC is intended to teach you.

      Reply Like 1
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      rebecca LAM P.S. there is a nice posting of your G Major on the Bach thread, at a very modest tempo.  Many of the Pros play it as fast as the wind, but I find it quite beautiful at a moderate tempo, where the cascading arpeggios and sequences can really be heard and appreciated.

      Reply Like
    • Peter Golemme thank you so much for your advice. This is so helpful in how to approach the fingering. You are so right about what works at slow tempo does not always work at fast tempo. I am so glad that it is not just me. I thought i only need to practice them more but the progress is painfully slow and full of mistakes. Then after looking at different fingering, I tried to change it. Often I have to change a lot of fingering including sections that was good previously in order to fit in the new fingering. So I need to relearn the whole passage and struggle even more. Then doubt starts setting in and I am ever confused at what i should be doing. I really appreciate you explaining it this way to help me understand. 

      My other dilemma is about the tempo. As you mentioned, most of the professional recording are super fast, or shall I say "impossibly fast" for me? I know I won't reach that kind of tempo but I like to set a goal for myself. Plus i use the metronome to practice sometimes so I don't go off to the deep end. Do you have any suggestions in finding the right tempo? Thanks again for your help. 

      Reply Like
    • Peter Golemme I looked on the tonebase bach stage by Juan and did not find WTC book 2 G major. Is there another thread? 

      Reply Like 1
      • Gail Ravin Starr
      • Have a growth mindset, no matter what!
      • Gail_Starr
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      rebecca LAM the G major from Book One is the PERFECT 1st P&F! 

      I'd suggest just keep going slowly bit by bit and, eventually, your hands will get the "feel" for the piece.  If you ever want to do a quick Zoom call, maybe I can help a little bit?  I'm NOT a teacher, but I have learned that particular P&F and I love it.

      Reply Like 1
    • Gail Starr thanks. I am so touched by everyone's generosity.  I would love to but I am working on G major from book 2. Not sure if you know that piece too. 

      Reply Like 1
      • Gail Ravin Starr
      • Have a growth mindset, no matter what!
      • Gail_Starr
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      rebecca LAM Believe it or not, I am quite familiar with this one also and I adore it!  Want to set up a quick Zoom to discuss sometime?

      Reply Like 1
      • Gail Ravin Starr
      • Have a growth mindset, no matter what!
      • Gail_Starr
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      rebecca LAM PS:  my fav recording is Angela Hewitt because she is SO clear...you can just learn by watching her!

      Reply Like 2
    • Peter Golemme You are right. The Tempi are, with exceptions played to fast.

      The Instruments, Clavichord and Harpsichord, for which this music has was written, would not have allowed such Tempi.

      In addition, the time Bach lived, was generally slower. The fastest thing people knew was a galloping horse. When You read letters from this time, people tried to be overly polite, and made great efforts to show good manners, and good manners meant patience, long winding conversations, nothing rush.

      Another point, the pieces from the WTC and the Suites is music written for cultured people. People who enjoyed to understand how this music has been composed. If You play to fast nobody could understand how the composer did it.

      A last point. C. P. E. Bach, one of Buchs sons,  complains in his book, Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen ( Essay on the true way playing the Clavier, i.e. Clavichord and Harpsichord)  that the pieces are played to fast. He wrote: "The music should delight the heart and not astonish the ear".            

      Reply Like 1
    • Gail Starr That's wonderful!!! Here is my email address: [email protected]. Just listen to Angela Hewitt's recording and I agree that it is so beautiful and musical, and much better than the glenn goud recording I was listening to.

      Reply Like
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      rebecca LAM Hi Rebecca, Sorry, I could have sworn there was a posting there but now I can't find it either. Somebody has posted the G Major from Bk 2 on one of these threads, & I'll let you know if I'm able to track it down! 

      Reply Like 1
      • Gail Ravin Starr
      • Have a growth mindset, no matter what!
      • Gail_Starr
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Peter Golemme My amazing friend, Natalie Peh posted the G major in Juan Carlos' Bach Stage last year.  Natalie practices 25 hours/day out of 24 so she sounds beautiful!

      Reply Like
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Michael Walther Thank you Michael for this feedback. I agree about the tempos.  There are perhaps some times when composers want a "blur" with notes whizzing past your ears, but I can only think of a few places in Bach where this is a desired effect (perhaps the harmonizing notes in the Bb prelude Bk.1?). But especially with the Fugues, every single note is part of the interweaving counterpoint of melodic lines, which should be heard, recognized and appreciated, which can't happen if it zips past you in a fraction of a second.

      So I find that in the faster Fugues, I'll tend to prefer more moderate tempos than many of the Pros (not to mention that I couldn't play at many of their tempos, even if I wanted to), because I want to hear the counterpoint.  Conversely, on the SLOWER fugues, I tend to favor tempos somewhat quicker than are often utilized -- for example the C# minor and D# minor of Book 1, but essentially for the same reason:  you want to recognize the phrases, and if you play them too slowly, they start to sound like separate notes [perhaps one's attention span is a factor here too]..

      Reply Like 2
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Gail Starr THAT's what I was thinking of! thank you Gail .... but I couldn't find it last time I searched.  Perhaps user error?  rebecca LAM -- see whether you can find Natalie's performance there and check it out!.

      Reply Like
      • Peter Golemme
      • Piano Player with Day Job (for now)
      • Peter_G
      • 4 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Michael Walther P.S. do you know where I can get a copy of CPE Bach's treatise?  Amazon was offering one that seems to be a poorly Xeroxed pirated edition of some kind, but I couldn't find any currently available printed editions in English.  I was amazed that it seemed to be out of print.  I would have thought Dover or someone like that would have reprinted it, but it doesn't seem so.

      Reply Like
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